We just received a message from a victim that introduced us to a community called Active Rain. It is really a great board, so we will repost the posts here. Amazing!
If you do not know about what is going on in the state of Utah or various other states, please do not use your "700 credit score" inapropriately.
To me this alert was more of a shot across the bow of the people doing fraudulent things, and now the DRE in Utah can prosecute non-licensed individuals, whereas before they could only issue a cease and desist.
Posted by David Doerr on 05/24/2007 06:38 PM Comments (842) franklin squires, nouveau riche
This post has been included in Utah Information
Post is included in group: Mortgages
842 Comments on Fraud Alert!!!
Hope this spreads to other areas of the USA. There are far too many transactions that are put together under false or fraudulent terms. Thanks for sharing.
05/24/2007 07:28 PM by Michelle Spalding Orlando, FL
I believe it is coming... It is only a matter of time before a lot of this gets hewn down and thrown into the fire.
05/24/2007 09:56 PM by David Doerr
Thanks for the post. As Michelle indicated above, I also hope this spreads across the country!
05/27/2007 12:23 AM by Tony Gallegos
Its about time!!!
05/28/2007 12:09 PM by Kris Krajecki
Hi, David! These characters seem to come up with new schemes as fast as they can, don't they? Thank you for sharing.
06/11/2007 01:03 AM by Yolanda Hoversten - O'Fallon Real Estate Agent
Is franklin squires being investigated ? I have heard they are but I am unsure as I haven't heard anything from any credible 1st hand source. If they are and they are legit I assume we will all know soon? I assume they will also put out a press release saying they were not investigated or that they were but have been exxonerated. Did some of the producer's high end exotics get confiscated? What about driving $200,000 is in line with a principles govern philosophy? Arn't those cars overpriced, depreciate and just abou thet look at me factor? I don't think Warren Buffet drives those kind of cars.
09/20/2007 06:43 PM by john
Franklin Squires is being investigated by a number of regulatory and law enforcement agencies. Some scum-bag got an investigator from the Utah Dept of Securities on tape admitting the same.
On a similar blog Koerber tried pulling the wool over everyone's eyes when this exact same subject arose. Knowing what I do I couldn't let him sit there tell whopper after whopper. Some of the people posting had actually invested money in his 'down-line' and were being stone-walled about their money. So I called him out and dropped just enough info to let him know I was on to him. After my post the entire thread was deleted the next day. The operator of the blog was loosely affiliated with FS and he didn't want to lose his place at the feeding troth.
FS is a huge cult of stupidity and criminality.
10/02/2007 04:55 PM by David Ben Mosha
David, You seem to know the most about FS from the outside. I also notice that after about 9/15 all the questioning on thier web site disappeared and none has shown up since. I have a brother-n-law up to his neck in FS or one of the downliners. I have tried in vain to get them out or to just use sensable reason with securing thier money to no avail. It is a very cult like organization in that anyone who opposes them does not understand the constitution, is envious of them, or is just plain "consumers" (not producers) even though he has not worked in over 2 years. He just hunts, rides motorcycles or goes to another FS seminar to become a "holding company". I listened to Rick Koerber's radio program and he admitted that he was under investigation. The sad thing is he told an investor "you invested with one of the holding companies not with me, therefor I have never done business with you, I may owe the holding company you invested with, but not you" he also stated that he stopped paying one holding company because they were suing him and "it was not prudent to pay someone who was suing you". Do you have any information that I could pass on to help my brother-n-law see the light in time? or is it already too late?
10/04/2007 10:15 PM by Marvin B.
I have been assisting Michael Hines with the Division of Securities and Exchanges for the State of Utah. Yes they are under investigation "Franklin Squires and the Down Line companies" From the information I have the State and Franklin Squires and the down line holding companies have come to an agreement. This has had implications for over a year...One year ago the Division placed restrictions on Franklin Squires from accepting any more outside investments. The new agreement is that Franklin Squires and Down line companies sell off assets and repay investors @ 12% interest. The Division believes it is possible to do with assets currently held by these companies. I have questions as the market ir rapidly depreciating. I know Franklin Squires shelled American Timber craft....and other Portfolio Companies have not paid investors interest Payments since June. My in laws have 237,000 With Gabriel Joseph and Anuit Coepetis....a Down line of Franklin Squires....Gabe is Ricks right hand man. He has failed to repay the note and has not made this months Interest payment on the Note. My opinion Rick told Gabe and others after his experience in Wyoming "Do not worry about it if you get caught there is no consequences"
Looks like they will be getting off Scott free.....And investors will not get their 36% and could possibly lose everything even tho these scum bags promised a NO RISK INVESTMENT!
Steve M
10/18/2007 12:53 PM by Steve M
I just wanted to chime in here on Rick's defense. I have no idea where you got the idea that they said it was an "no risk investment". They have from the beginning told people to manage their risk. Apparently, some people ignored that council and went straight for the gold. Now, they're hurting.
10/29/2007 06:58 PM by Tim Harper
Tim, I agree with you, there is always risk involved, and people looking for a quick buck ignore warnings.
10/29/2007 07:33 PM by David Doerr
a friend of mine knows a group of people that's affiliated with Franklin Squires and they all drive nice cars. he seems to think that they get them for free or close to free. does anyone know what could be going on with them and how they can get nice cars like this for almost nothing?
11/07/2007 11:37 PM by curious
That group you are referring to is Atlas Marketing et al which I am told (third hand mind you) also had a company that invested 'capital' in Founders Capital/franklin squires. Atlas execs and employees DID drive exotic and high-end vehicles. The word is that they too have gone under and bounced payroll checks with their employees. This whole scheme is crumbling. The downline is getting crushed. What a tangled web of deception. Who knows how far it really goes. One thing is certain, you won't get the truth from people who told you that "high returns don't mean high risk." Koerber, Joseph, Wade Sleater, it doesn't really matter who it was--it was all a big put on. Whatever trouble they are in is entirely of their own making.
11/08/2007 10:24 AM by To Curious
If Franklin Squires is indeed a ponzi scheme or a mortgage fraud scheme using straw buyer's ( http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600151169,00.html) why haven't their owner's and principal employees been arrested or at least their names collectively and or individually been mentioned in news media as possible fraudsters. I believe Dave Fox from a Utah television station as well as a mayoral candidate of eagle mountain have been accused of mortgage fraud (see link above) http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/241427/I am also aware that a Utah county and Utah state task force (see link latter) has been created but you would think if Franklin Squres was involved with this sort of nefarious activity they would be the first to be brought down as they have billboards (cheesy and lame if I don't say so myself) literally all along I-15.It seems to me the only thing they may be doing illegally has to do with unlicensed and unregistered investment's which given the founder's prior history ignorance of that law doesn't seem to bode well. However, it seems I haven't heard anything from Utah Securities against Franklin Squires so I am assuming that they unless substantial evidence is presented are operating within the laws of the state and do not appear to be doing illegal. I do think that some of their economic principles and beliefs are elementary, unoriginal and play into the mormon culture for sure but it is not against the law to re hash or plagerize the beliefs or writings of "the American founding father's". I look forward to more discussion and inevitably an exxoneration or charge I am thinking it will more likely be the former.
11/11/2007 08:32 PM by john
John,
I agree with you 100 percent--if Franklin Squires is engaging in questionable behavior, then why is there no press coverage? Why is there no information coming from sort of official outlet? I read all of these people who say they have researched the company, but they provide no concrete evidence to their claims. It's always "I have a friend..." If anyone has more information on the company, when you post, tell us how you know all of this stuff about the company.
Thanks!
11/12/2007 12:35 AM by Annonymous
If I remember correctly, the FBI doesn't comment on current investigations. Nor do they make press releases saying "We are investigating so and so," it is not public record.
The charges against Dave Fox were from a transaction that happened May of 2006. Investigations take time. When you consider the scope of the investigation that either the state of Utah or the FBI is possibly undertaking in an investigation of that type, it will take a lot of time.
11/12/2007 09:32 AM by David Doerr
I have been paying attention to this because Franklin Squires bought my home with a "Seller Finance", where they pay me based on a purchase amount of $650000 and pay a monthly mortgage on the property to me through an Escrow company. After a certain period of time, say 3 years, they pay the remainder balance. Problem is... they are late on their payment, granted it was due on the 10th (last friday). They have a sign on their building that says "Franklin Squires will be closed today, we are sorry for any inconvenience", and that was there last week as well. I have tried calling their company since Thursday of last week, and all calls just bounce back to the menu, no answers.
So in other words, something stinks. It is frustrating, because they supposedly bought my home, and I moved out. It will be a fun process of defaulting them, and moving back into the home, without jacking my good credit score, should it come to that.
They espouse the values and principles of Ayn Rand, and the book Atlas Shrugged, however, I am almost done with that book, and I don't see how Mr. Koerber can claim that he is in the same mold as "Hank Reardon", who in the book created and manufactured a revolutionary metal, and Dagny Taggert, who developed and maintained a large railroad company, or John Galt who developed a revolutionary Engine, they were "producers", what has Rick Koerber produced? (This is an honest question I would like answered, not a slander of him, but seriously what has he produced?)
I have heard many other things about Franklin Squires, but they are all 3rd party, but they are starting to appear to be true. This is just my experience with them.
11/13/2007 04:32 PM by Anonymous
Notice of default filed in Utah County involving New Castle Holdings, LLC.
11/14/2007 10:05 PM by Joseph
It looks like FS isn't being a good steward over their own property in Mississippi or even paying property taxes accordning to a mississippi newspaper....
http://www.clintonnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071108/NEWS/711080330/1001/NEWS
11/20/2007 12:08 AM by
Tim ....they have gone looking for capital...My in laws were approached and offered a "No risk" Investment....It was documented. I have verified it first hand.
Steve
11/21/2007 08:57 PM by Reply Tim Harper
I called their offices on Wed someone answered. Wouldn't the property in Mississippi have a lien against it for non payment of taxes?
So does anyone have any idea of how many people borrowed money against their home equity to invest with directly or indirectly Franklin
Squires or how much money they raised?
11/22/2007 09:04 AM by mike
Anon:
You'd better check the title on your house. Those douches have probably put a lien on it--meaning that your house is probably partly or entirely owned by someone else. You should have checked your shorts before you sold to those turkeys. Good luck, the equity in your house is gone. Your credit score is the least of your worries.
John:
If every Utah Valley scam were to make the news there would be no time or paper for anything else. Lack of press coverage is not evidence of financial viability or ethical vindication. Quit trying to protect these jerk offs. You think securities violations are just some trivial matter? You really think RK is going to be exonerated? You're out of your mind.
11/24/2007 04:06 PM by To Anonymous & John
The rumor is $30 million.
11/24/2007 04:08 PM by to Mike
I think that RK is a dishonest man that when he goes to church on sundays and partakes of the sacrament, he thinks that makes it all better. He is the biggest hipocryte that i know
11/28/2007 05:32 PM by Mike
does anyone else have any info on atlas capital. wade sleater, etc. just curious what people might know.
11/28/2007 08:47 PM by bob
Wade Sleater is working hard to liquidate assets to make payments. IT just takes time in this lending market.
11/29/2007 07:45 PM by Chris
Hold the phone. Do you realize how stupid that statement is and how much it reveals about Wade's issues? Liquidating an asset means selling off something you own. How the hell does it have anything to do with the "lending market"? Let me take a guess. Wade hopes to "liquidate assets", but can't because they were over-financed to raise his "capital". And now it's the lending market's fault because no one (buyer or lender) wants to do 100% financing on something with 20% negative equity. Talk about shifting the blame. The ponzi is over an now they want to play victim because no one is dumb enough to bail them out. Absolutely incredible. These assholes didn't just play with fire, they were thieves from the start.
11/30/2007 01:41 PM by To Chrissy
Wade Sleater informed his workers today he was bankrupt. He said he needed to fire them all so that they would be able to file for unemployment. I have relatives who were working for him and were there today.
11/30/2007 05:25 PM by M.B.
is Rick @ Franklin Squires in a similar situation? that sucks right before Christmas. They all loved him when he paid them well, turned a blind eye as to how and now that it has crumbled everyone talks about what &Y#&*#&* these guys are. They only did what idiot naive and greedy people wanted them to do and empowered them to do by joining in. I do feel sorry for all the people that lost savings, jobs and shirts so some people could drive ferrari's and act like hot shots for a couple of years. if fraud was perpetrated they should go to federal prision. Let them take the sacrement there, lol
11/30/2007 06:38 PM by mike
Does anyone know anything about Noveau Riche?
12/01/2007 12:35 AM by tom
There is alive recorded conversation at www,FranklinSquireslawsuit.com with the DIRECTOR of the Division that is currently investigationrick Koerber and Franklin Squires. It looks like a great site with a lot of information including the live call. That says it all boys..
12/01/2007 02:39 PM by www.FranklinSquiresLawsuit.com
The URL IS HERE
12/01/2007 02:41 PM by www.FranklinSquiresLawsuit.com
Paisola your phone call proves nothing. If they had a case against FS they'd have already done something. Just because you are a convicted felon by way child porno and financial malfeasance it doesn't mean everyone else is of your same moral depravity. We know you did some time in the joint, why are you so determined that everyone share in this same type of misery. I think you are a disgusting individual.
12/03/2007 12:09 PM by Robert Paisola Has Spoken
That is what I was saying people are accusing them but I would think that if they were involved like apparently a number of other organizations in Utah County are esp amongst LDS than they would have already had charges brought against them and so forth or declared bankruptcy. Unless people have specifics I think we should give franklin squires the benefit of the doubt. That being said I would pull any money I had invested with them just in case, but would presume they are innocent until proven guilty.
12/03/2007 01:28 PM by john
Easier said than don John, I have been asking for all of my money for THREE MONTHS!!!!!!!!! I have been told that there is a PPM in place but nothing has been done yet. I'll give franklin squires the benefit of the doubt when Hell freezes over which we all know will never happen. Thats all i've been asking for is my money back, which whom i invested it does have a secured note with FS, but that seems to do no good. Claud Rick Koerber is a piece of dog shit.
12/03/2007 05:49 PM by annon
Wade Slaeter moved out of the home he was living in on Saturday. Of course the home wasn't titled in his name so some sorry sap will have a foreclosure on their record. His right hand man Nelson moved out of his home two weeks ago, same deal. A couple of his other guys have bailed out of homes also. Yes, all of these guys drove 100K cars and had 20K wrist watches etc. I know that Slaeter had 32K invested in a fund that you know hundreds of people lost retirement savings etc. His father was down here for 3 weeks trying to find out where some money went that one of his close family friends from WA lent to him for "investments" 300K I think?? Dad had no idea?? Hot shot wasn't who he seemed to be......Unfortunately there are fathers out there beating there children because they are in bad moods because they have no food on the table, can't pay the mortgage and have no retirment because of Slaeters false promises and lies. ALSO - don't listen to these guys cry that are in the line of "we lost 200K of equity because we gave the money to Slaeter" These fools over appraised the homes, skimmed the equity and could never sell the homes for what they are worth. It is the lender who will lose the money when the home forecloses!! Sorry but I don't have any sympathy because the housing mess in part is because of these types of equity strippers. People don't realize how many properties and how many of these people are out there.
12/03/2007 07:58 PM by by annon
annon, could you clarify what you meant when you said slaeter had 32k invested in a fund that you know hundred..... thanks!
12/03/2007 08:36 PM by bob
Wade Sleater wasn't half as smart as people/investors thought he was. He was a pathetic businessman, a scammer and a con man. (not to mention compulsive liar) It's obvious he has been out of control and imploding for months, but investors couldn't wait to give him their money.
12/03/2007 10:45 PM by sleater hater
Okay, so you don't like Robert Paisola--fair enough. Although I definitely question his motives, character assassinations are not necessary. If he's lying you should be smart enough to say why his is wrong rather than stoop so low. Go ahead everyone, listen to the phone call--I think it is interesting at the very least.
12/04/2007 12:31 AM by
Rick Koerber and Gabe Joseph have been making interest payments again. All you have to do is stop by the office and get your PPM set up properly.
12/04/2007 01:23 AM by joseph
Hey, is 12 Daily Pro still around? We should all invest in that. I guarantee we could make like 46 percent a day doing that. Visit 12dailypro.com and register today. It is risk free.
12/04/2007 01:30 AM by Jeremy
Yeah you only started hating Sleater when the money stopped flowing. It's good you've stuck to such noble principles. You are a fair-weather producer. Sleater will be back and you'll all wish you hadn't abandoned him. I'm sure when the money flows you slither back, slap some shoulders, and ask for a job. Too bad you failed this test of loyalty. The Pinnacle turn-coats have probably saved themselves from immediate hardship, but I rather have financial problems than be labled disloyal. "Backstabber" is hard rep to shake especially when you just moved to another sugar daddy when the going got hard. This whole thing reminds me of the book. D'anconia will be back.
12/04/2007 01:46 PM by To Sleater Heater a.k.a Wesley Mouch
I know most of the people in the group you are referring to (except those in WA) and not one of them is crying about losing "200k in equity". The only home that is being foreclosed is Wade's and that's pretty normal for a bankruptcy. The values have also increased so the lender will be fine and if he isn't so what. That's why the home is therel.
Sure some people lost some money and may have to tighten their belts for a while, but I think you are not principled in exaggerating and spreading lies. Do you like to see other people struggle/fail? People who took actions that led to them living off investments did so against principle. Hopefully everyone will learn from this. All I know is that everyone did pretty damn well for quite a long time. Nothing lasts forever. Sell the house, the toys, downgrade the autos etc. Take that money and live a simpler life and enjoy your families if you got em.
12/04/2007 02:07 PM by To Anon
Do you really think it's appropriate to joke around about beating children? Maybe you think this is all the end of the world but that kind of comment is extremely offensive to some people. You should think before saying something so dumb.
12/04/2007 02:10 PM by Another to Anon
It's funny how everyone critisizes a person when he is down. A lot of investments go south. If you are not willing to take hits don't invest. It's funny how everyone loved the investment on the upside but when it slowed down it was a scam. Get educated....then invest. You have to be willing to take the ups and downs of every investment you make. Send the investment fairy over this dudes investment isn't going as well as he thought it would. When you invest accept the fact that things can slow down and at times go away. It's part of investing.
12/04/2007 04:31 PM by Tony
joseph, if rick is making interest payments, how come i dont have mine for three months. maybe its different through Founders Capital, and the person that i invested with but i have seen no money for three months, principal or interest. could you please explain how the PPM works and what i do next, THANKS
12/04/2007 05:51 PM by annon
I have the unfortunate position of knowing about Wade Sleater and Atlas Capital from and insiders perspective. I know more than I want to know about the real estate, the fast cars, the deceit and the greed. At the end of the day the blame rests on everyone. Yes, Wade is dishonest, unethical, uneducated and arrogant. Yes, he lied and manipulated people to get wealthy. Yes, he will walk away from a large portion of the mess unscathed. I am sure he will have his own sizable problems to deal with, and I hope that justice does it work so that he does not have the chance to scheme again.
I also have to blame myself and so many unfortunate others who thought they could beat the system and get rich quick. It is pretty stupid to think you can make 3% a month on your money for any prolonged period of time. I should have listened to my economics teacher. In short, we all lose and negatively impact others because we were damn greedy.
That being said, I think Wade and his accomplices should go to jail. They did in fact break all sorts of laws. According to several corporate attorney's I have spoken with, it is just a matter of time.
12/04/2007 06:56 PM by Inside the mess
It's not at all stupid to think you can make 3 percent per month for a prolonged period of time. I have been making 6 percent on my money for the last 4 years. And yes there are risks associated with it and those are risks I am willing to take.
12/04/2007 10:22 PM by
To Anon:
Let's see, the truth is that Wade's house actually HASN'T increased in value but has actually DECREASED. It was already mortgaged to the hilt and he was upside down with it.
Yes, maybe his home is being foreclosed on, but alot of the other homes owned by the group will eventually be foreclosed on if they don't sell. You ever tried selling a house that you're upside down in and a short sale at that? Yeah, doesn't work as well.
And to those "Producers", give me a break. Principles this, principles that. Freaking Free Capitalists are the biggest bunch of losers that exist. You ever ask a Free Capitalists a question and actually get a straight answer?
Question: "Is this coat red?" Answer: "Yes"
Free Capitalist Answer; "Well, lets see. First off, why are you aking if the coat is red? Do you have any association with the coat? Did you invest money with the coat? Did someone tell you the coat was red? If we look at the word red, we can see that it has three letters. It starts with a "R" and ends in a "D" and has a "E" in between. So really, the question isn't "Is the coat red", it should be, "Who was wearing the coat and you should know the coat is making it's payments and hasn't taken on any investors in more than two years.
Seriously, it's very sad what's going on. You've got to remember that these guys have families and young children. I agree with other people in that the people investing should have known things were shady when these outrageous returns were promised.
The saddest thing is that Wade and his bunch would have been just fine if he would have stuck with Dish.
12/04/2007 10:29 PM by Bill
Does Rick Koerber still have his radio show?
12/04/2007 10:33 PM by rick
I also received my payment from Founders Capital last month. I keep hearing that people aren't getting paid their interest. I have been getting mine.
12/04/2007 10:35 PM by Larry Hinton
A lot of haters on this blog WOW. I hope nothing bad ever happens to you. Karma is a prostitue. Remember that these guys are human beings. They have blessed a lot of lives. A lot of lending companies have gone under making real estate very tough right now. A lot of builders and lenders have gone out of business. Let things cool off. You accomplish nothing by running for the hills.
12/04/2007 10:45 PM by Lee Walker
nice comment lee. these guys "blessing alot of lives". well put?? you definately have a bizarre perspective.
12/04/2007 11:03 PM by bob
Has anyone heard about this press release from the Utah Securities Department? Click the link....very interesting. Does anyone have any information on this?
http://securities.utah.gov/press/bouchard.pdf
12/04/2007 11:27 PM by anonymous
I have a hunch I know a few of the people on here bagging on Sleater, and frankly it's amazing to see how many of you will kiss the guy's ass when he's paying you an outrageous salary for being part of his "team" only to cower and run when the going gets tough. Half of the people that seem pissed off were his flipping advisers and they left him holding the bag. What a joke.
12/05/2007 02:04 AM by Former Atlas Employees
Going back to franklin squires so they are paying the monthly interest checks? The question I have is what if people want 100% of their inestment back no additional interest is Franklin Squires able to do that? Yes or no ?
This reminds me of the whole Joseph Smith and the kirtland anti banking society with the followers of the charismatic leader (smith) getting pissed off as they lost their investments. Joseph was unethical and dishonest in the Anti bank though! it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out regarding the charismatic leaders of Franklin Squires and Atlas who both seem to have used some of Joseph's leadership tactics and motivational techniques
12/05/2007 10:20 AM by john
Thanks to Anonymous above for the Utah Securities announcement also see the newspaper's http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7637345?source=rss
From the newspaper " Klein said Bouchard, 48, and his company, Hunters Capital, were not licensed as required under state law but still solicited investor money from July 2005 to May 2007.
State officials said investors were told that their money would be used to fund real estate loans and that Hunters Capital was paid a high rate of return by another company called Founders Capital. In some cases, new investor money was used to pay earlier investors in a ponzi scheme, Klein said.
He said the case also could be considered a pyramid scheme because earlier investors were given a financial bonus to recruit other investors. "
from the Utah Securities announcement " According to charging documents, Bouchard and his company, Hunters Capital,
approached investors between July 2005 and May 2007 with the following offers:
investor’s money would be used for hard money loans to buy real estate in exchange for
promissory notes, investors could get their deposit back with a 30-day written notice,
investors would receive a 3-4% return per month on their investment with Hunters
Capital and they would be eligible for a 1⁄2% commission on new investor referrals.
Victims were also told Hunters Capital sent investor funds to Founders Capital, of Utah
County, which paid Hunters a high rate of return. One victim was told his investment
would be used to purchase homes when in fact his second deposit of $130K was used to
pay off two previous investors. To date, Hunters Capital has not purchased any real estate
with any of the victim’s investments.
Investors are urged to contact the Division of Securities to make sure anyone offering
investments is licensed, by calling (801) 530.6600,
Is Founders Capital affiliated in anyway with Franklin Squires and or Claud Rick Koerber?
If it is that would be very bad news for the Franklin Squires group as according to the schmuck involved in Hunters Capital his lawyer makes it look like he will be a prosecution witness which means he is not the big Kahoona see the statement of the legal council below:
"My client has agreed to work with the state and has been compliant. The best way to assist the investors is to make an arrangement with the state that will avoid any type of prison sentence for my client," he said.
From this website it appears there is an allegation that Franklin/Rick/Founders are affiliated
From http://www.wasatchwatcher.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=313 there is an allegation that Founders is affiliated with Franklin and Mr. Koerber.
September 12, 2006. Each of these businesses, all located at 85 East Bay Boulevard in Provo, gave $5,000 to PCE on that date: Founders Capital LLC, Hill Erickson LLC, Franklin Squires Investments LLC, McGuire Group LLC, and New Castle Holdings. Some other individuals and businesses are shown in that report giving $5,000 to PCE on that date, and one of them is Rick Koerber of Springville, who is apparently the owner of all of the businesses I just listed.
12/05/2007 10:45 AM by john
I have a question. You defenders of Sleater say he was "left holding the bag" and that he was victimized by his advisers. Wade was always the one in charge. He had his hands in everything (like being the CEO of everything) Where does the buck stop? I can't believe someone is trying to place some of the blame back on the employees, who in this case are most of Sleater's victims. If it's not Wade's fault whose is it? It doesn't seem like Wade was taking anyone's advice Unless you have have the who and what or proof to back those claims up you should STFU. Otherwise you Atlas boyz better go back to rimming Sleater.
12/05/2007 10:59 AM by To either Kyle or Rutsy
Is the Donohoe Group involved in any of this? I thought that they were somehow connected or he broke away from them. Anyone? The guys name is Patrick Donohoe.
12/05/2007 05:19 PM by intrigued
Larry Hinton, just a quick question. Is your investment directly with Founders or is invested through a holding company? and what is the name of that company? just wondering because you are one of the few people that are receiving any kind of payment and i sure would like mine. thanks
12/05/2007 06:28 PM by Annon
I have a couple family members that invested with Wade Sleater. And now are being told to sit tight as he liquidates assets to pay back investors. Does anyone have any idea how long this 'investing' was going on for?
How much money he took? He also owns a Dish network sales company-Atlas Communications. Is that company now 'bankrupt' as well?
12/05/2007 11:04 PM by concerned
Here is the web site for the FreeCapalist blog....and it is for the first time I have notice "unavailable" hmmmmm? See galtsgulchforum.com
12/05/2007 11:31 PM by Marvin B.
Does anyone know where Wade is now?
12/06/2007 06:05 AM by concerned friend
I can't believe all of you can feel good about just blaming Wade. I have been around a lot of you and no one was complaining or concerned while they were driving their Porche, Audi, Mercedes, or when they wanted to go out on Wade’s boat. Like a lot of the previous postings said, yes Wade may have done some unethical things, but where is your personal accountability? Yes it is said how many lives have been affected, but how many of you are just going to wait and jump on the next "get rich quick" scheme? Go out and get a job and learn what it means to put in an honest days work for on honest days wage. It is really refreshing.
12/06/2007 06:25 AM by Outsiders View
It is amazing to me that some people don't get that sleater is a crook and deserves jail time. The home that he lived in WAS NOT in his name, he scammed the lender, he scammed his investors until the end. He spoke to Kyle Nelson about grabbing money for themselves while they still could. Hundreds of people gave him funds on this ponzi scheme. You can't buy homes and take out the equity to pay past investors just to strip the equity out of another home. All the while, defrauding the lender you are borrowing from by over appraising the property to begin with. Who gets left holding the bag? The lender, and now it looks like the honest americans as Bush is providing a package to bail a lot of these people out. Of course they aren't in the trenches and don't know what happened to the dough..... Sleater is a CROOK, he does NOT care about his associates, he cares about his money. Ask his so-called closest partners who are now gone because he abandoned them. He kicked Nelson out of the house he had him in when things started going south. You people who defend him, defend the right to commit crime. Go work for Brad Kitchen...
12/06/2007 12:59 PM by annon
annon,you have a funny command of the facts (er, lies).
12/06/2007 01:21 PM by annon is a liar
this was written above and simply dumbfounds me...
I know most of the people in the group you are referring to (except those in WA) and not one of them is crying about losing "200k in equity". The only home that is being foreclosed is Wade's and that's pretty normal for a bankruptcy. The values have also increased so the lender will be fine and if he isn't so what. That's why the home is therel.
Sure some people lost some money and may have to tighten their belts for a while, but I think you are not principled in exaggerating and spreading lies. Do you like to see other people struggle/fail? People who took actions that led to them living off investments did so against principle. Hopefully everyone will learn from this.
MY RESPONSE: You people who don't think that these homes will forclose aren't living in the real world. You have 24-27 year olds living in million dollar homes that were only able to pay for them because they gave Sleater false equity of 200K and he was paying them back 3% which is 6K per month. This was in essence making there OPTION ARM payment. Well - those option arms will adjust, the 2% has stopped coming in and since the homes were financed at 125% of REAL value, these homes WILL foreclose. So for you boys that had the big house, the teenage wife going to the salon daily, the harley and the 100K auto. Time to learn how to work, how to save and maybe explain to your wife why your moving into an $800 a month apartment and why the bill collectors are calling? OH - and when you sleep at night, think about the 60 year old that saved for 20 years for that 200,000 equity that he paid down and you stripped out of his home and threw away knowing that he would never see it again. Think about Sleaters lifetime family friend that was promised he would see his 350K that can't pay his employees, that money never came from home equity. This guy has no conscience. He was partying at the Jazz game in the box with his follower groupies while some of his seething investors wanted to walk up and punch him out the other week. He cares not!!
12/06/2007 01:23 PM by
Is the sky falling? Maybe if all your exaggerations were true it would be. You say that 24-27 year olds are living in million $ homes will be foreclosed on. This is not true. You are either lying or talking about a different group of people (maybe Franklin Squires). I won't say that some of these people will have higher payments as will millions of other Americans. They will cope. Most of them have already found jobs and will be fine.
Whose house other than Wade's is going to be foreclosed? Anything you would say would be nothing more than a guess. You should stop pretending you know things you don't. If these "seething investors" were really at the Jazz game they can't be too bad off themselves.
Besides, any idiot knows you don't take out equity loans or risk money you don't have to make investments with a company like Atlas. High risks, high returns, you played and you got burned. Tough luck. Go whine to someone else.
12/06/2007 02:50 PM by To the no name above
It is all a ponzi scheme. Take in the money that investors are giving you and send it right back out as "interest" to them. When the people stop sending money in the payments stop going out. There needs to be some sort of other revenue generator and it seems that either there never was one, or the thing never got off of the ground. This is a sad situation for all investors involved who have lost their life savings, but buyer beware!
It don't take being the head cashier at Wal-Mart to know that if there is more money going out than coming in, YOU HAVE PROBLEM and that someday it is all going to go belly up!
If there truly was some criminal activity here it will all be discovered in the end and the appropriate parties will end up holding the bag at the end of all this.
The sky is falling. When hundreds of people stop receiving their payments and notice that they are going to be losing a lot, to them the sky is falling big time.
12/06/2007 03:01 PM by Craziness!
Want a fact? Nobody knows all the facts. Not Wade Sleater, not the guys at FranklinSquires, and certainly not a bunch of people who lost money in the deals. There are far too many hands mixed up in this to sort it all out without a serious investigation by the Government and I highly doubt everyone involved is being honest with everyone. If they were you wouldn't be hearing so many rumors. (Though if you want another, today is the first time in months that I haven't seen an excessive number of expensive sports and luxury autos parked in front of FranklinSquires offices, not saying anything, just found it interesting).
Those defending anyone who has broken the law (and there are some that have, I'm just not going to name names) is either clueless (not necessarily an insult as I myself don't know it all and are therefore clueless in some matters) or is an accomplice. Even if you are one of the crooks best friends it is unlikely you will ever know everything that has transpired. Likewise even if you think you have all the facts I am quite certain you don't know half of what you think you know.
12/06/2007 03:21 PM by An Observer
annon,
Where are you pulling these accusations out of? We all know that what Wade did was was wrong and alot of good pople will lose money but you seem to be taking this awfully personal. How much does he owe you? Or did he get your sister pregnant or something?
12/06/2007 03:54 PM by John Bender
It seems there are some people here who could help me out. I have a few questions about Atlas Marketing and Atlas Capital:
1) Who were the managers/executives of Atlas?
2) Did Atlas Marketing run independent of Atlas Capital or were they operated w/ the same people?
3) Who were the people in charge of accounting at both places?
4) Were interest payments made by Atlas Capital sent through the mail?
(a) If sent through the mail whose signature was on the checks?
5) What was the process by which people invested money with Atlas Capital? Did the meet w/ a particular person?
6) What were investors of Atlas Capital told would be done with their money?
7) Were investors sent statements or documentation of any kind?
8) If investors had questions or made a request to withdraw their money who did they talk to?
9) Is there any property or items that were purchased with Atlas Capital funds that could be easily hidden? (precious metals, jewelry, art work, collectibles, memorabilia, vehicles in another's name etc) Or was it every apparent that large sums of cash were being held by Atlas Capital or its principals or agents?
Thank you.
12/06/2007 04:13 PM by A little help please...
Sounds like Annon is getting a little concerned on making his payment for his house and sports car :(
12/06/2007 05:53 PM by annon is a liar
Try Sleaters watch collection - I know his group was selling anything they could that was under the radar a couple of weeks ago to get some free cash. OH and - Sleater supporters, keep up the smiles and slaps on the back, please also call the attorney general and the other investigators and let them know what you may know so you may be able to help the little old lady that lost her retirement. You guys are blind, I am not an investor, never lost money. I know of people who did, heard the stories and know the guy. The entire deal stinks and what he did to and with these people stinks... The free capitalist crap stinks and all the trust me I'm your home teacher, your money is safe crap is unbelievable. It is no wonder that Utah County breeds fraud....turn your head to this kind of thing but then pay your tithing and all is well. How do you sleep at night?
12/06/2007 05:55 PM by annon - to a little help please
Pay your tithing that is the best one yet you are aewsome. Talking to people from other states, they think that mormons are the most dishonest people that they have dealt with but put it to them they sure can get your trust and get the deal done cant they
12/06/2007 06:34 PM by Annon
other people have been affected by this too. the investment group ockham was hit hard and there was between 5-8 million invested with Wade through about 60 different regular joes, not millionaires. this is far reaching and it would just be nice to know what is going on. we were affected greatly and we make less than 100k, it was our life savings. we have 2 homes and they are foreclosing. not saying this for sympathy but we were naive and for lack of better term "stupid" and decided to go with this. my family had hard money invested as well and we all lost it.
investing is a risk no matter how much they tell you it is secured. we lost 65k but for us that is a lot. tough lesson and hard credit hit.
12/06/2007 07:38 PM by
Bottom Line? Manipulating appraisals + ponzi scheme + equity skimming = FRAUD. Slice it, dice it, spin it how you want but it don't change the facts, man.
It doesn't take entrepreneurial genius to commit fraud. You lie, sucker others in with greed, and then pretend you're a great guy. You falsify loan applications by overstating your income. Deep down, you know that is true. You just thought you could ride it out for a while.
I mean, what did you THINK was going to happen? Unfortunately "you can't get just a little bit pregnant".
This wake-up call is the best thing that can happen to those 20-something yr olds and their suddenly poor-house bound wives. They were on the road to ruin anyway, at least they're young enough to start over. Maybe they'll even grow some ethics and try to help those they burned.
You ain't feelin' so funky now.
12/06/2007 08:48 PM by Marky Mark
Annon - so you really talked to people from other states? Really? Wow! Try LIVING outside of Utah and you'll get your facts straight. Those outside of Utah generally consider Momons to be VERY honest in business. It's the Utah mormons duping other utah mormons that gets the bad rap.
Get that chip off your shoulder some other way... but get a reality check first.
12/06/2007 08:57 PM by Marky Mark
Wade took everything to a new level. Let me tell you another. He had what he called "credit card investors" who he conned into allowing him to use their credit cards to pay for expenses of Atlas Marketing so that they could get the points to use for trips and other things. Sounds good as long as they paid the bill, but when you have to pay 3% to 4% to your ponzie scheme the person left in the end gets screwed. Well, the "credit card investors" are stuck with around $2 million of credit cards that wade didn't pay. He paid his off but left everyone else holding the bag and many of these people were parents of the 20 somethings and are going to lose everything. I have never received a dime from wade or any of his cronies but have seen the destruction that he created. He knew what he was doing, he just cared more about his image as a success and didn't care that he was stealing. Pure and simple. Wade and his cronies need to go to jail!!!
And all of you who defend wade and talk about that there was risk. Wasn't one of the myths of the producer revoultion high return required high risk? Well, now we see that their myth is the basis of capitalism? Wierd, that the "free capitalists" didn't know the first thing about capitalism. But then, had they said that high return require high risk no one would have given them any money. Do any of you really believe that wade didn't purposefully create this whole fraud????
12/06/2007 10:05 PM by Atlas Deception
With all this talk about "Wade and his cronies" I have one question: WHO ARE WADE'S CRONIES? I can't seem to believe this is all just one person.
Anyone?
12/06/2007 11:49 PM by AmEx Tex
For a while I was like WTF is up with these gullible 20-something jackasses? But after reading about parents who were "credit card investors" it's all making more sense. Credit card investors? If this isn't a contradiction in terms what is?
12/07/2007 12:22 AM by the call center girl who sang to the meat microphone
Who's got an 'in' w/ Kyle Nelson? I'd be very interested to hear what he has to say personally. Anyone consolidating names to formalize a complaint to the Utah Attorney General?
12/07/2007 01:55 AM by xxx
What I can't beleive is that he still has his followers. I guess I can....reason is, they are still perpatrating these types of scams in other areas. Here is one for you - the hammer is starting to come down, daddy is in town trying to find out why his long time friend has been scammed and isn't getting his money and sleaters wife says, "can't we just down size"? These guys used the black american express cards to finance sleaters debt - they also had the ponzi scheme with the fancy cars. This guy would have scammed a sno cone shack if he would have had the time. All I can say is the law needs to come down fast and hard on this guy or he will hurt people again.
12/07/2007 08:41 AM by outsider looking in
Can someone name names other than Wade and his buddy Kyle? We should expose these guys for who they are and not allow others to be swindled. Put the names out there. Just post the names on this annon board and the rest of us will do the work!
Also name the company names that are affiliated with all of this. I know that there are a ton of different companies out there and they should be exposed as well.
Thanks!
12/07/2007 09:16 AM by Please name names!
A snow cone shack with an appraised value of $375,000!
12/07/2007 09:33 AM by juanpedro
Here is a portion of an article written on Sleater:
Atlas' success led Sleater to start and invest in about 20 businesses that now employ more than 1,000 people. Source XII is the parent company of these businesses, or subsidiaries, including: Atlas Marketing Group; AMP Gym, an athletic and health training facility headed by former football star Dave Stroshine; ISM Films, a developer of online filmmaking courses; COPIA Ventures, a real estate development and marketing firm; and many others. Sleater's role for each business varies from shareholder to CEO.
"Atlas, our personnel mill, allows us to plug recruits into all of the businesses I've created," Sleater says. "People come to us not only for potential funding, but also for intellectual property to start a business. We call ourselves human capitalists. We're leveraging human intelligence to create maximum production."
What can't you live without?
"My family and friends."
Who is your biggest mentor?
"Dennis Webb."
12/07/2007 09:44 AM by naming names
Who are the cronies that everyone is talking about? By who I mean the actual names of these people. They are just as guilty as Wade and Kyle. I agree with the person who wants more of the names of these low life scums released.
12/07/2007 10:27 AM by Disgusted
Believe it or not Wade was the one calling the shots on EVERYTHING. He was a one man show. He manipulated his employees in the same way he manipulated his investors. People who worked for him had no idea the extent of his deceite, they were victimized as well.
12/07/2007 10:36 AM by Insider
This is serious business. Naming names could ruin the reputation of potentially innocent people.
12/07/2007 10:52 AM by be smart
Insider:
Part of what you say is true. Wade did have a hold over most of his employees but there were TONS of other guys who knew EXACTLY what was going on and what needed to be done. Everyone knew what they were doing when they found their "investors" for the properties they purchased.
But again, Where's the accountability from those people who more likely than not had some feeling that "hmmm, maybe we shouldn't be donig this" and "This seems too good to be true." And for the person above who has accepted the responsibility, how in the world could you have invested your "life savings" in something with this high of risk?? You don't deserve to get your money back if you were that naive.
As far as foreclosures go, it takes awhile for the whole foreclosure process to happen. To the post above who said that these homes won't go into foreclosure, WAKE UP IDIOT! All of these guys already had rates around 9%-11%. How in the world do you think they're going to pay for that without the ponzi money. That's why most everybody else have left their homes or are trying to unload them, QUICKLY!!
To A little help please. Sounds like you're some type of investigator looking to compile a list of charges. Do some research. It's not that hard
12/07/2007 11:07 AM by Bill
Name names? I suspect that many of the guilty folks you allude to lost money as well and are now assuming the status of "victim" publicly and perhaps even writing (and complaining) on this board. Those guilty of fraud and/or ethical lapses seldom (if ever) see themselves in that light, even if tried and convicted. Those who help the fraudster, admittedly often unwittingly, don't see themselves as part of the problem. One thing for sure, they could be part of the solution if they chose to be, but few will tell the whole truth for fear of exposing their own culpability, either to themselves, those around them or publicly.
Let's face it, we all know that this board is most likely being monitored by those who would exact punishment (both angry/helpless investors and law enforcement), leaving many posters cautious about their posts, protecting themselves or perhaps those they still number as friends. My hope is that everyone involved will show a little courage and tell it like it is. I agree w/ "be smart", above, that names should be used only when the facts can be publicly referenced, but surely some use of names is appropriate, and this board could be a decent source of facts if used properly. Relate your experience, post it in detail, use names where appropriate, psuedonyms where it's not, outline the processes, the flow of $, the actual "deals" and sales pitches. Can you handle the truth? Can you tell it?
12/07/2007 11:16 AM by juanpedro
For an "outsider looking in" you sure have intimate knowledge. A quote from his wife? You know about his Amex card? His watch collection. His Daddy's "long time friend". It sounds like you were in on it.
12/07/2007 11:50 AM by JP to outsider looking in
I am not an investigator, I'm just trying to get my head around what happened. There are people here who by their claims or by their information show they have detailed info about the companies. It also seems that some people here are those who probably did some of the deception too (they are the ones begging the others not to name names). Of course they would say that. It's to their advantage to direct all the criticism to Sleater. It's just funny how obvious they are about it. I guess they'll spill their guts when the time comes.
From what I do know, there are very few real victims in the mess. Between the scammers and the scammed, what's the difference. They were all mixed up with each other in all sorts of strange business contortions.
What I think needs to be flushed out however, is who were the ring leaders. Who knew better? Who had a responsibility to stop it? Who enabled it all? I have a hard time believing it was all perpetrated by one or two individuals.
I guess the anonymity on an anonymous internet board isn't sufficient. If that's the situation you're all in deeper shit than you think. Sorry to interrupt--back your scheduled jagoff session.
12/07/2007 02:14 PM by A little help please
Wow, looks like when "A little help please" doesn't get what he wants he takes his toys away and storms off. What is a jagoff session anyway?
Just because people on here know what was going on doesn't make them guilty also. They probably chose not to participate.
I do agree with you on the point that their are few victims here. And yes, people were loving life when the interest payments were coming in, but then became victims once things turned south. The only possible victims are the people way downstream. With the Ponzi scheme, all of Wade's buddies were pretty much put in charge of finding other people to add to the scheme. Obviously it served them in two ways. The monies obtained were used to cover interest payments to them and then it added to their percentage that they would get the next month.
As far as ring leaders, "Franklin Squires or Founders Capital have not taken on any investors nor has anyone been allowed to invest with them in over two years." This is probably true, but everything flowed in one direction.
12/07/2007 03:11 PM by Bill
Jagoff session: Is an gathering of people where everyone is saying "I'm an insider I know" and they go back and forth without actually saying a damn thing.
All the people harmed by this scam would be a lot better off if they'd start putting the pieces the have together so they could actually know what happened to their money and jobs.
Bill, I can't believe you would try to bring Franklin Squires/FC into the discussion w/ Atlas. I know they were affiliated w/ Engenuity for a while but association does NOT equal guilt. They parted ways several months ago. Last time I heard Rick was making the payments, hadn't shut down his business, and is still on the radio. While Rick may have hit a few liquidity snags, the ponzi described w/ atlas is a whole different ball of wax.
12/07/2007 03:29 PM by A little help please
I will bring Rick into this because.
What do you know about it? You say they parted ways several months ago? Do tell...
The things Atlas was doing is the SAME thing Franklin was doing. Maybe not the ponzi scheme, but it got started from learing from Rick. Franklin Squires will go into a neighborhood, buy a few homes, pass them back and forth to inflate the value and then take out the equity. Hmmm, what do they do with the money they skim?
Wow, I can't believe you are coming in here DEFENDING Rick. Wade was doing illegal things, but you think Rick isn't doing illegal things? You just lost any credibility you had.
12/07/2007 03:38 PM by Bill
Wow Marky Mark what a name so you like yhose boy bands do you? I have lived in other states for a total of 10 years!! you go to Houston and ask those Souther Baptist about Mormons!!!, then get back to me OK. Not a chip on my shoulders just the facts man just the facts.
12/07/2007 05:17 PM by Annon
To "A little help please".
You've been pleading for info and pushing for names on this board and as soon as somebody interjects one you do your best to shut him down? You can either stick w/ the narrower truth that you willing to accept or you can accept that there may be more to it than that and be willing to listen and then judge for yourself. I suggest the latter if you are really interested in having people open up here.
12/07/2007 05:55 PM by juanpedro
Here's a name - Garrett B Gunderson. I believe he was getting a % off some of the investors he brought to the table. Are there other investors who would like to divulge who recommended this investment to them? What is the linkage between Engenuity and Atlas (if any)?
12/07/2007 06:39 PM by xxx
I wouldn't bring names into this. It isn't wise, and you can bring a lawsuit upon yourself for libel. It happens all the time. IP addresses are tracked.
12/07/2007 08:27 PM by Names
"Names" above is right about IP's being tracked and the potential for a libel suit. Unless you know something to be true it's not at all wise to post about it.
Here is a quick primer on Libel from the Media Law Resource Center (meidalaw.org) (Note: this post should not be considered legal advice and is for educational purposes only. This poster is not an expert and sill not be held liable for misuse of the information If you require legal advice such advice should be sought from a competent legal representative such as a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction):
What is Libel?
Libel and slander are legal claims for false statements of fact about a person that are printed, broadcast, spoken or otherwise communicated to others. Libel generally refers to statements or visual depictions in written or other permanent form, while slander refers to verbal statements and gestures. The term defamation is often used to encompass both libel and slander.
In order for the person about whom a statement is made to recover for libel, the false statement must be defamatory, meaning that it actually harms the reputation of the other person, as opposed to being merely insulting or offensive.
The statement(s) alleged to be defamatory must also have been published to at least one other person (other than the subject of the statement) and must be "of and concerning" the plaintiff. That is, those hearing or reading the statement must identify it specifically with the plaintiff.
The statement(s) alleged to be defamatory must also be a false statement of fact. That which is name-calling, hyperbole, or, however characterized, cannot be proven true or false, cannot be the subject of a libel or slander claim.
The defamatory statement must also have been made with fault. The extent of the fault depends primarily on the status of the plaintiff. Public figures, such as government officials, celebrities, well-known individuals, and people involved in specific public controversies, are required to prove actual malice, a legal term which means the defendant knew his statement was false or recklessly disregarded the truth or falsity of his statement. In most jurisdictions, private individuals must show only that the defendant was negligent: that he failed to act with due care in the situation.
A defamation claim -- at least one based upon statements about issues that are matters of public interest -- will likely fail if any of these elements are not met.
12/07/2007 09:39 PM by About Libel
Well this we all know for sure, if you went out and solicited or invited people to put their money into a fund and you were paid to do it, you better be registered with the government and dotted your I's and crossed your T's or it is securities fraud. From what I have heard wade and others were paying 4% a month with usually 3% going to the "investor" and 1% being paid to the upline. Wake up everyone, if you participated in rasing the atlas money and you were paid to do it you broke the law. Now, the law frowns on anyone who raises money improperly, but when they lose their money and their was not only technical infractions but out and out fraud like we have here they eventually investigate and prosecute. However, you should all know that nothing will happen for months and even years with Wade and the others becuase the authorities have such a full case load in front of them that I bet the Atlas case hasn't even been opened yet.
12/07/2007 10:24 PM by Atlas Deception
I differ in the opinion that naming those involved with Atlas is libel.
I'm not saying they are all crooks simply by association, but, without a legitimate insider willing to step forward, how else do we shed light on the overall structure of the Atlas hierarchy?
Additionally, it isn't a crime in and of itself to get paid on commission, so I'm not trying to 'defame' Garrett (for all I know, he may have thought this was a legitimate deal), but it could help us get information closer to the source if others have also invested with similar Atlas partners.
12/07/2007 10:32 PM by xxx
Yes your shaking in your shoes aren't you? You're afraid that someone knows something and is going to let the cat out of the bag. Why else would you go to so much effort to chill this discussion. Could you be any more transparent in your motives? The use of the word 'primer' narrows the possibility of your identity. You are manipulative assholes. You think after all these people have been through you can continue the deception? Is it just a coincidence that all of the forums controlled by the 'network' have been removed?
LISTEN EVERYBODY, JUST TELL THE TRUTH. IF YOU DON'T KNOW, DON'T SAY IT. IF IT'S A RUMOR, DON'T SAY IT.
HOWEVER, IF YOU DO KNOW, DON'T BE INTIMIDATED BY THESE CROOKS WHO WANT YOU TO KEEP QUIET ABOUT WHAT WENT ON. (libel requires that what you write be untrue).
12/07/2007 11:24 PM by To the Libel "attorney"
To the person who posted as "To the Libel "attorney""
Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. I'm not inolved in this scam for the following reasons:
1. I don't believe in ripping off my fellow man.
2. I don't do business with members of the LDS church because of prior business dealings where I was ripped off.
3. I only invest in regulated securities (Stocks, ETF's, etc.) where I can be provided with a prospectus or Placement Memorandum prepared to meet all SEC requirements.
Despite what you think my vocabulary could never reveal my identity because as stated I am not involved in the scam. I know people who are among the so called victims and have only been checking in here to print copies of the posts for the one that doesn't have Internet access.
I will admit my post was probably poorly worded in that I should have made it clear what my intent was in visiting. I posted the information on what Libel is, not only to say that if you don't know for certain that someone was involved you could face a lawsuit as stated by the previous poster "Names" but also to prove that there are several things that someone filing such a suit would need to prove in order to make their case stick. If someone does have factual information they want to share they should. I'm sure there is plenty of such information out there. So please accept my apologies for not wording my response in a way that showed my intent and consider for a moment that you too may be wrong about some things. I will keep my mouth shut moving forward and simply print the posts as was requested of me.
12/08/2007 12:38 AM by J
....back to who knew what and when!
Many friends and family members of employees made "investments" in the company right up until the days before the collapse of the company. If any of the employees saw this coming I doubt they would have helped people they cared for throw their money away.
I could be wrong, but I believe that none of the employees (and maybe not even Wade himself) understood the absurdity of investing or offering an investment in ANYTHING that claims to yield 3 or 4 percent per month. That high of a return on investment exists only in the Land of OZ.
12/08/2007 01:14 AM by Almost an Insider
Where were the accountants or finincial advisers on this one? They had to know that somewhere things were not adding up. I know they had accountants full time on staff.
12/08/2007 04:24 AM by puzzled
Here is a link i found by typing in "wade sleater" and performing a blog search in google. It is the top link that shows up with the interesting link text. This guy, Dan, seems to have some first hand experience with Wade. Appears that even some individuals that worked in the accounting department had no idea what was going on.
The link appears to be dead or incorrect but if you click on the
Dan - http://danswinyard.blogspot.com/ it takes you to his blog page
and then perform a search on his blog space for
http://danswinyard.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html
scroll down to "A Bedtime Story" november 10th.
And his blog on Novemember 5th "summer of 07"
12/08/2007 09:06 AM by concerned
Has anyone out there heard of Kimball Holdings LLC, and what they supposedly invested their money in?
12/08/2007 10:48 AM by very intersted
I have wondered the same thing, where was the accountant in all of this mess. Surely he could see the big picture - even others didn't. Hummmmm, I am guessing there are lots of questionable accounting issues - such as...... income tax fraud?????
12/08/2007 10:54 AM by To by puzzled
I could imagine the owners of some of these "Holding Companies" (and it's becoming clear that we're discussing a group of "Holding Companies" working similar business models with owners who are tied to each other by more than just being in the same industry by chance) doing some books themselves, the larger ones hiring a college student or two or even a recent grad to do their accounting, folks whose experience was insufficient to catch the type of financial machinations that may have been taking place. Unless a firm like these is being audited I supsect the owners can exert a great deal of influence over the accountants/bookeepers whom the hire and pay and throw bonuses at without the accountants/bookeepers knowing the extent or implications of the books they are keeping.
12/08/2007 11:47 AM by juanpedro
I know that some of the individuals involved perpetrated a fraud by selling thier homes to outsiders, with an agreement to deliver title somewhere down the road, investing that money at 3-4% with Atlas, Founders, Hunters or others, and continuing to make payments to the bank to avoid the "due upon sell clause" (that is in every mortgage). I know for a fact that my relative learned this technique from one of Koerbers seminars. From my perspective Mr. Koerber started this whole snowball, encouraged others to start thier own "holding companies", allow them to pass the money to his company (Founders), and then play innocent by saying that he isnt actually holding any individuals money, only the few holding companies he has accepted investments from. The reason FranklinSquire will go down last is, he thinks he has shielded himself from prosecution by legally setting up his companies and putting out press releases stating that he does not accept money from individuals (listen to his past radio programs where disgruntled investors have called in).
12/08/2007 11:50 AM by Marvin B.
Marvin, that sounds the closest to the things I have heard from friends over the years. Interestingly enough tens of millions of dollars seem to have been raised without a stitch of printed marketing material leaving a great deal of plausible deniability for anyone but the "downline investor" whose left holding the bag (the exorbitant loans taken out to fund all this). Here's a little conjecure (and bad spelling) as things MAY have occurred, in part. I'm sure the actual events were much more complicated and may not have happened at all as I've imagined below, this estimate is therefore hypothetical.
I imagine an investment company, let's call it HardMoney Company, as a hard money lender charging above market rates to borrowers who are in need of alternative funding (non-bank) for time sensitive projects like land development and are willing to pay extra for it in the form of high "points" and interest rates. A good business to be in, but to make such loans you need lots of unencumbered cash. So below HardMoney Company I imagine a bunch of Holding Companies put together to gather up funds to be sent to HardMoney Company (or another investment), each Holding Company being "owned" by an individual who largely subscribes to the idea that real estate equity is useless until it's removed (through loans) and invested someplace (HardMoney Company would be one such place). The owners of the Holding Companies go out to family, friends, acquintances, referals, seminar attendies, whatever, and find people willing to give them money to invest by extracting equity from their existing properties and/or proactively buying properties, having them appraised as high as possible, take out additional cash loans based on new appraisal, send these new loan proceeds to Holding Company, Holding Company sends it to an investment, perhaps like HardMoney Company, investment like HardMoney Company in turn pays money from it's legitimate projects back down-the-line to Holding Company, Holding Company pays money down-the-line to "investors", each level skims a little off the top from the actual investment proceeds being paid by HardMoney Company or other investment. Even though the investment money in such a scenario is all encumbered at the investor level (is loaned by a bank against personal colateral), by the time it makes its way all the way to HardMoney Company THEY have no encumberances and can invest it however they want with no expectations of collateral or transparency, just agreements with the Holding Companies.
All the debt being taken out by the downline investors to generate investment funds has to be paid by somebody and although that appears to have often been worked out by agreement so that the investor didn't always service their own loans to begin with, the downline investors are the names on the loans -- and as agreements disolve and interest payments stop the lowest guy on the totem pole is left with near all the liability and no longer is getting the interest payments to service the debts that (s)he incurred for the money they invested. As it falls apart, if it falls apart, the investment company (like HardMoney Company) can say they didn't raise any funds, go talk to the Holding Company. The Holding Company can say they didn't tell anybody to be aggressive on their valuations or their loans or to be less-than-honest on loan apps (there's no paper trail of how they solicited money), go talk to the investor. The investor is dying a slow death as the leinholders get nastier and nastier in hopes of not having to foreclose on the collateral.
Just an idea from what I'm seeing and hearing and it may be WAY off. I'd love to hear it told by someone with real experience if there is such a person (again, I may be wrong), no need for names if you're not comfortable with them, but I really have no dealings with any of these entities and am just hypothesising.
12/08/2007 12:52 PM by juanpedro
Do any of you that own these high end cars want to sell them? I can pay $10,000 cash. I am not picky about what kind, I just want a good deal.
12/08/2007 02:30 PM by need a car
I have a 97' Accord that I would be willing to let go for $10,000. It's real nice. Let me know.
12/08/2007 03:02 PM by High end car
to the idiot above if you buy an item you know may have been purchsed illegally substantially under market value you not only are aiding and abetting criminal activity but I would imagine that you would loose the vehicle anyway as the creditors will show that it was unloaded illegally and unethically.
So the founder // franklin group seems to be a lot better off than Atlas from what everyone here is saying
12/08/2007 03:36 PM by idiot above
There should be some equity left in the car i.e. equity strip. The guy above apparently agrees that $10,000 for a 97' Accord is "substantially under market value".
12/08/2007 03:56 PM by High end car
If I quoted some of the founders and told you this is based on "principles" then would the car be more appealing?
12/08/2007 04:13 PM by High end car
Someone above mentioned Garret Gunderson as an investment czar as far as any involvement with Atlas I didn't see anything from his website he does have a pretty informative website I have in the interest of education copy and pasted how he says he makes money in real estate.
"Garrett B. Gunderson now owns over 100 properties, acquired within a single year (when it had taken him over two years to acquire just 14 properties when he was using traditional investment strategies). Further, Garrett acquired these 100 properties with little out-of-pocket cost, and never used his own credit. These non-traditional strategies that focus on the principles of economic exchange are what allowed Garrett to acquire so many properties in such a short period of time. Now Garrett uses his own credit only when he can act as a bank to achieve cash flow, creating portfolio income without the use of his cash. He uses his properties as collateral to earn high interest rates from individuals seeking short-term financing to enter investment opportunities.
More importantly, Garrett understands how these investments contribute to his overall wealth creation blueprint. Garrett no longer chases return on investment exclusively, but instead understands that the secondary consequences of investments, such as tax savings and equity repositioning, are equally important considerations. Knowing how an investment fits within his macroeconomic objectives lets Garrett manage risk to near-zero.
Because he does not enjoy the business elements of real estate investing, Garrett still does not participate in the daily processes of identifying real estate investments, or managing real estate properties. He has never fixed a leaky toilet, or met most of his tenants.
Instead, Garrett has established win-win partnerships with other investors and real estate professionals, each contributing their unique abilities and resources to establish profit for all parties in these transactions. This partnership model creates interdependence, and increases the number and frequency of opportunities available to each person involved. Through his principled understanding of value creation, Garrett knows that by distributing profit among many individuals, everyone actually profits more.
Garrett earns hundreds of thousands of dollars in annual cash flow from real estate investments that many times require none of his own credit, and next to none of his time, personal energy, or attention. How is this possible, and what constitutes the difference between the hopeless scenario of Garrett’s earlier Las Vegas investment, and the profitability and ease of his current property investments?"
12/08/2007 11:26 PM by from website
Total Crap!
I cannot believe anyone buys into this stuff.
12/09/2007 01:25 AM by regarding Garrett B. Gunderson
Well, I can't believe anyone bought into your Ponzi scheme
12/09/2007 03:05 PM by Response
Have any of Gunderson's investors lost their money? As far as I knew he did not have any hard money investors in Founders.
12/09/2007 03:31 PM by The Passion
I just don’t see how someone can legally purchase over 100 homes without using their own Credit??
How is this done? Sounds like our hypothetical "Holding company" as noted earlier.
Free Capitalist discussion is still un-timely offline. hmmm
Here is a San Diego thread which Mr Koerber himself explains equity milling to someone concerned about the investment.
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/sdcia/vpost?id=1821780
I find it interesting that so much of the Franklin Squires New/info section is regarding practices they are NOT involved with. Why does a private capital/consulting company have to post this clarification/justification about themselves on the WWW?? If they are not involved, why post this type of info??
Read.
Alert- Equity automobiles
Alert- Holding funds and high returns
Alert: Investment Opportunities with FranklinSquires - Deception
12/09/2007 05:04 PM by Puzzled
Rick Koerber is still doing seminars, classes and his radio show. He is doing an event at American Founders University on January 11th. The theme is based around a guarantee to get your portfolio income high enough that it offsets your fixed monthly expenses. What does anyone out there know about American Founders University? How does it all work? How many people actually attend etc.
12/09/2007 07:46 PM by interesting
We were very concerned about the practices of our son when selling Dishnetwork for Atlas. [Actually salesmen could sell either of two different satelite providers, leading to fraudelent convincing of subscribers of one system to switch to the other system.] They never registered or got permits or licenses to sell from any local government; they were told that if anyone asked, just excuse yourself and go to the next house. He tried to sell us a package and not one part of his sales pitch matched the printed contract we were asked to sign. Salesmen were treated as private contractors, so federal income, SS, and medic/are taxes not held out. Compensation was handled so as to avoid any state income tax issue, regardless of state selling in. This way of selling seemed so unfair to local established companies who were playing by the rules and therefore had much higher costs for selling and installing the systems.
12/09/2007 09:50 PM by training dishonest salesman
They are located in East Bay Provo. They have different programs varying from teaching people about the constitution to real estate investing. They have open houses periodically for future students to check it out. Rick personally teaches a lot of the classes. They have been around for about a year now. I think they are somehow relatged to Kimber Academy which is elementary school through high school. Kids from Kimber often graduate at a pretty early age to get done with college pretty quickly. I think Kimber had a school in the Frankiln Squires building.
12/10/2007 01:59 AM by american founders university
Round and round it goes. You can't stop it, baby. Selling snake oil is the oldest profession (well, second oldest) in the world. Today it's sleater, franklin squires, brad kitchen, et al. tomorrow its another name, but the same ol' product, same pile of crap, just packaged in a pretty new can.
There's a sucker born every second. And by sucker, I mean a guy who spends his life living frugal, paying down his house, no debt, no risk history - then some slick willie comes along and somehow convinces him to mortgage it to 150% of the value and take a pmt there is NO WAY he can afford, all for a crazy promise of riches and glory. Crazy it sounds, yet, the poor sucker buys it gift-wrapped and leaves with a smile.
And for these message boards... They're fun and all, but filled with too many idiots to be seriously productive. You cannot take anything seriously - especially with deluded "chip on their shoulder" bloggers just looking to get a rise out of people.
For those who defend the perps, using a weak defense of 'but they weren't trying to hurt anyone' need a wake-up call, cuz you're the next sucker. Why? because is does NOT MATTER whether they were TRYING to hurt someone. They were careless, thoughtless, and shelved their morals and ethics for fame and glory. They risked other people's money on a scam that had only one possible ending. THAT is the most dangerous type of crook, the ones that delude themselves.
Oh, and Vote for juanPEDRO for president, maybe he can make people like Uncle Rico Sleater stop ruining everyones life and eating all our steak.
12/10/2007 10:24 AM by Marky Mark
So I saw the guy that runs Sleaters high end auto division taking pictures of all the cars that Sleater and company are still holding. He had them all cleaned up and was shooting the shots in front of Kyle Nelsons old house. Had all of these 100K cars lined up and ready to sell to who knows?? Sleater and his gang have left the subdivision...Sleater and his three buddies with the big houses all gone in the middle of the night. who is next? He still has more of his groupies hanging in for now.
12/10/2007 01:34 PM by just driving by
what address is sleaters or Kyles old houses?
12/10/2007 02:08 PM by address
Who are Sleater's three buddies? How did you find out they left in the middle of the night? I doubt leaving under the cover of night would avoid any of the type of trouble he is in. I was curious about that neighborhood because didn't a lot of the executives of Atlas live there?
12/10/2007 02:57 PM by to just driving by...
They all left in the middle of the day on a Saturday. Dumb asses don't know anything.
12/10/2007 05:47 PM by dumb asses
He and another 6 of his groupies all bought or should I say lived in homes at Canyon Cove Estates in Orem. He and 3 others have already bailed in last 3 weeks with more to follow? Can't sustain a million dollar option arm mortgage when sugar daddy isn't sending you the payment on stolen equity from your lender. Thing of it is, this is a great neighborhood which was swarmed by wanna-be twenty somethings and will be better off now that they are moving out. You can pull title on these homes = public records and see that he and the others didn't even own the homes.....same old story, they took the money, left someone else holding the bag. Other problem is the tax payers will end up paying with the Bush bail out plan.
12/10/2007 05:55 PM by his neighborhood groupies
I attended a seminar put on by FS at the Grand America Hotel around September of 2007. I was invited there by a guy who was affiliated with him (who recently was in the newspaper charged with fraud). My impression of Koerber at the time was that of someone who spoke a lot and said very little. We were there for 3-4 hours while he droned on and finally got to his point about his program which seemd to be about using you as a person to buy a house and turn around and sell it at a profit. There seemed to be almost a "cult of personality" among the audience (plants?) which I heard has become even more pronounced. I never did invest with this offer. The FS people also contacted me after the class and tried to put the hard sell on me to take the classes.
I know that the above posts are not directly about FS but my gut tells me that this is where it all started. I don't do real-estate. I am a health care provider so know very little about what he has tried to do. Was it a typical Ponzi Scheme all the way? Or was there intent to invest and flip properties because of the hot real-estate market at the time. I am just curious about it. Can anyone explain it in 2-3 paragraphs? I know Koerber never did and neither did the guy who tried to get me to invest in his holding company.
I am continually amazed at the amount of fraud that goes on in Utah County.
12/10/2007 07:14 PM by
Sorry, that was my post above.
12/10/2007 07:33 PM by Curious Lurker
from the franklin Squires website;
Inappropriate Reporting: Founders Capital has no connections to the
investors of Hunters Capital
Provo, UT December 6, 2007 – FranklinSquires Companies, LLC, in order to prevent inaccurate
assumptions, wants to address the mention of its portfolio company, Founders Capital, in several
local Utah papers, specifically an article in the Our Town section of the December 5, 2007 issue
of the Provo Daily Herald. The article, detailing the charges brought by the Utah Attorney
General’s Office against Paul Bouchard and his company Hunters Capital for securities fraud,
inappropriately referenced Founders Capital as a company to which Hunters investors believed
their monies were sent.
Founders Capital has no and never has had any connection, official or otherwise, to the investors
of Hunters Capital. Hunters Capital, while an investor in Founders Capital, is a separate,
autonomous business apart from Founders. Founders is an independent company and is not liable
for nor comprehensively aware of the business practices of its investors.
Founders Capital’s association with Hunters Capital is unrelated to Hunters association with its
investors. Media reports and other information releases such as the Provo Daily Herald linking
Founders to Hunters Capital investors in its article about Paul Bouchard’s business dealings is not
responsible reporting. FranklinSquires invites the Herald to be more professional and accountable
in the future for the product it delivers to the public.
In regards to Paul Bouchard, disagreeing with the manner in which these charges were brought
against him, FranklinSquires considers Paul Bouchard to be a good man, who despite his apparent
business missteps is not rightly viewed as a criminal and the regulatory process that brought
about this conclusions is beyond good public policy and beyond the appropriate measures of good
government. For the sake of Mr. Bouchard and his investors FranklinSquires wishes him well
and express our confidence in his sincere determination to work diligently to repay his investors.
___________________________
12/10/2007 10:18 PM by Franklin Squires Press release hunter's capital.
FranklinSquires COMPANIES, LLC
OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE
FranklinSquires Update: Embracing Change
Provo, UT December 7, 2007 – FranklinSquires Companies, LLC recently announced it has
undertaken and will continue to take significant strides in restructure specific aspects of its core
business and the business of a number of its portfolio companies. Foremost among these changes
include real estate, human resources and Free Enterprise Forums modifications.
Real Estate Changes. In the past several months there have been serious challenges in the financial
marketplace related to the secondary residential mortgage market in the United States. The
impact of these challenges has affected several FranklinSquires portfolio real estate business. In an
effort to appropriately adjust to the current market environment, these real estate businesses have
reorganized in order to ensure their long-term survivability, grow their businesses and provide
a profitable return to their owners. Lindsey Dayton, Vice President of Equity MillTM Operations
states, “We’re highly confident the changes we’ve made will place us in a niche that will guide the
real estate marketplace.”
Human Resources / Personnel Changes. All FranklinSquires employees are employed by
a separate company CRK Central Management, LLC and given specific assignments to
FranklinSquires corporate or one of its subsidiary or portfolio entities. On the 6th of November
FranklinSquires founder and CEO Rick Koerber summoned a Company Meeting to discuss
several challenges facing the company as it has grown substantially beyond its founding with a
half dozen employees in 2004. During his presentation Mr. Koerber announced that all current
employee assignments would end at 5:00 p.m. that very day. While all employees who choose
to do so would remain employed by CRK Central Management, LLC and the announcement
also indicated that each employee desiring to remain employee would have an opportunity to be
reassigned within the company.
“I viewed this as a re-organization, not as anything else” said Koerber afterwards. “All employees
were given an opportunity to be responsible for their continued employment. We had just reached
a point where many employees were not productively engaged on a day to day basis and change
was necessary for the health of our overall business.”
As of date, ninety-two percent of employees have been re-assigned and remain employeed. “I was
very excited to hear about employment changes because I knew they would bring opportunities
for most employees to redefine their job descriptions and compensation packages in a manner that
/ 2
better aligns their talents, skills and wants,” states Steven Freestone, a FranklinSquires Executive
Vice-President. “I feel these changes place the company in a better position to move forward and
grow.”
Koerber’s announcement did not come as a surprise to many employees and was an effort to
become more efficient as an organization.
Forum Changes. The Company has previously developed, owned and administered membership
programs of various types. Recently, through partnership with two of its portfolio companies
(Free Capitalist Enterprises, LLC and Producer Revolution Membership, LLC) changes have
been made to streamline and grow these membership offerings. Previously called Free Capitalist
ForumsTM and Producer Revolution ForumsTM, the forum program is now being consolidated
and renamed. Replacing the old forums are Free Capitalist CouncilsTM (local civic service counsels
dedicated to shaping change in local communities consistent with the 3 Principles of ProsperityTM
and Faire Action ForumsTM (local study and civic action groups dedicated to studying the
principles of Americas founding generation and helping individual members become financially
self-reliant, economically independent and financially free).
The newly organized Free Capitalist Councils, (with the first council organized in Utah County,
Utah) will begin holding Town Hall meetings every Thursday starting January 3rd 2007. These
Town Hall meetings are for members of a community to meet together with members of the
Free Capitalist Project to discuss community and social change in an effort to work toward
improving their community. Town Hall meetings are open to the public. In an effort to also help
inform community members, Faire Action ForumsTM —are study groups where people have the
opportunity to study principles relating to self-reliance, economic independence and true freedom.
The restructuring of several aspects of FranklinSquires business and portfolio businesses,
according to company executives, has resulted in more efficiently run operations. They declare
morale is high at FranklinSquires as it embraces and tweaks the old adage, “The only thing
constant in business, besides the outcome of action based on principle, is change itself.”
Individuals interested in becoming involved in a Town Hall meeting or Faire Action Forum are
invited to contact jkimber@franklinsquires.com.
FranklinSquires Update: Embracing Change
12/10/2007 10:23 PM by franklin squires # 2
Looks like FS needs to hire a proofreader and a couple of writers. Not only are those press releases poorly written but they're full of grammatical errors and typos -- the biggest being the date of the new Town Hall meetings. January 3, 2007. Don't they mean 2008?
12/10/2007 10:45 PM by typo
From the first press release:
Media reports and other information releases such as the Provo Daily Herald linking
Founders to Hunters Capital investors in its article about Paul Bouchard's business dealings is not responsible reporting. FranklinSquires invites the Herald to be more professional and accountable in the future for the product it delivers to the public.
If you actually read the Daily Herald article, this is what it says:
The victims were also told Hunters Capital sent investor funds to Founders Capital of Provo, which allegedly paid Hunters a high rate of return, court documents said. One victim was told his investment would be used by Founders Capital to purchase homes when in fact his second deposit of $130,000 was used to pay off two previous investors. To date, Hunters Capital has not purchased any real estate with any of the victim's investments.
I have a hard time seeing how this is "not responsible reporting." (Side note: Don't they mean irresponsible reporting? Who the hell writes these "press releases"?) The reporter was just citing court documents and those who were scammed. All they said was what they were told their money was being given to Founders Capital when apparently it wasn't. Can anyone at FS please explain how this is "not responsible" reporting?
12/10/2007 10:58 PM by typo
typo is right. What was said regarding the relationship between Hunters Capital and Founders Capital is from a Media Release directly from the Utah Department of Commerce. There is no "irresponsible reporting" happening here.
Here is the link:
http://www.securities.utah.gov/press/bouchard.pdf
12/10/2007 11:46 PM by intrigued
Hey Curious Lurker......how affiliated with Koerber was the guy that took you to the September event?
12/10/2007 11:54 PM by intrigued
I am the "Poor Sap" mentioned above who owns Wade Sleater's house. I want to know as much as I can about this guy, I will answer any question anyone on here wants to know. I never met Wade Sleater, but lent my credit on his dwelling through a guy named Rex Wheeler at The Ockham Group. If anyone wants to know about Capital Leases, Bedrock Marketing (the hard money program paying 24%), how this had affected me and many others I will be happy to share what I can. I am not a millionaire, and not LDS. I do not need someone on here preaching about me enjoying the fruits of this while it was good as I didn't. I had tried to divest myself from these people (and I use that term lightly) for a year, due to fraud and webs of people there was literally no way out. Now my credit is ruined from their theft, my family and I have lost lots of money and I have lost all faith in the goodness and honesty of people. I can tell you how I was introduced to them, and like many others it was through a network of Garrett Gunderson's.
12/11/2007 07:22 AM by PoorSap
EquityMillTM
Free Capitalist CouncilsTM
3 Principles of ProsperityTM
Faire Action ForumsTM
...BullshitTM
12/11/2007 07:29 AM by xxx
PoorSap -
I agree that some of the investor blame spoken of earlier is probably making it difficult for vicitms to come forward. As in all such schemes, there is probably a bit of embarrassment for some in revealing that they have been victimized. As in the case of some of my relatives, some victims haven't come forward because they are still hoping for a payback of their principal "with interest". However, before Wade and team are able to hide assets further or hurt others, I would STRONGLY suggest filing a complaint w/ the Utah Division of Securities (link below)...
http://www.securities.utah.gov/complaint_general.html
It would also be be beneficial if you could share your story with as much detail as possible, including names (individual & company), dates, sales pitches, etc. As long as you are factual in your statements (i.e. keep in mind there could be involved 'downline' parties that may have truly been in the dark), there should be no risk of libel. This could help other victims realize linkages between schemes and help them come forward with their own stories.
Would you mind divulging which house it was? I found several properties under Wade (most now appear sold or transferred to another party), but I'd be interested in researching other linkages where he might not be legally registered under the property.
12/11/2007 08:31 AM by
sorry, - for above post...
12/11/2007 08:32 AM by concerned family member
Hey poorsap,
You should be able to enjoy your new pool Wade put in and the theater and the new 4th car garage.
12/11/2007 09:11 AM by
To intrigued,
The guy was Paul Bouchard. I know people will laugh at my credulity, but how much of a victim or fall guy may he be? That "cult of personality thing" was strong and he (RK) may have sucked in associates as well as investors. I use the term victim loosely but you can be both victim and perpetrator in this mess.
The above press releases my be their way of trying to dissociate themselves from the Hunters capital mess but they all must know each other quite well.
I have been googling and following this for about 2 years now. Honestly, I'm suprised it took this long to see the implosion and resultant fall out.
12/11/2007 09:11 AM by Curious Lurker
I am not comfortable putting anything on here for obvious reasons. I am not sure what these people would do to me if I made one misstatement. I will say the house I am holding is in Orem and he moved out the last weekend of November. I believe was his primary residence. He had done some remodel work to it and not paid the contractors what he owed them and they are now due money. There are liens on the the property because they haven't been paid so I am having a difficult time selling the house. This is not the only house I am trying to get out from, it has been very difficult for me and my family.
I am happy to share information privately if you want to know.
P.S. As far as the pool goes, he hasn't paid for it. It is unfortunate as these contractors are good guys from speaking to them on the phone. I don't even live in Utah so I have never seen the pool. All of you defenders of Sleater should talk to these contractors or myself, I will be happy to share with you another perspective that is the truth. I did not work for him and would not know him if her were standing in front of me so don't blather about liking him when things were good. I do not mean this to be a bash Wade Sleater post, I am just trying to figure out how I could have been so stupid to do any of this.
12/11/2007 09:29 AM by PoorSap
Thanks for posting the Press Releases. The focus of the PRs seems to be to tell people that they did nothing wrong, though some associates may have made errors on their own. They also appear to be trying to create more layers of "business entities" between themselves and their investors, something they have done a lot of in the past, I believe to dilute and obfuscate any connections to the end-investor level and insulate themselves from liability. It may work, it may not, it certainly has worked for them so far from a legal perspective, but their denials in the PRs do not ring true to the casual reader.
Question raised by FranklinSquires Press Release: If Founders Capital takes investment funds from Hunters Capital that Hunters Capital raised from individuals does Founders Capital have any connection to the investors? Does the "transitive property" apply (if a=b and b=c then a=c)? In my mind we would need to know a little more info such as whether or not Founders Capital knew how Hunters Capital was raising the money. From what I can tell they not only knew but assisted them in creating the fundraising processes and mechanisms. However, Founders Capital seems to have been very careful to never have any direct business dealings with them (contractual dealings). I'm sure that wiser men than I are pondering this very point right now.
They seem intent on saying that they've invested millions of dollars with no investors, employ dozens of people without any employees and own many businesses without any personal accountability for the actions of the businesses.
Sorry to hear about your house PS. Thanks for the info, I look forward to hearing more details.
12/11/2007 09:30 AM by juanpedro
It seems that on a larger level you have learnt the hard way that greed, and being trusting sets yourself up for being victimized. What you and many people here have realized is normal and common I was also victimized in a similar fashion by a company called Comlink Capital, LLC http://www.comlinkcapital.com/ Ron Hansen although it was only $20,000! I know the FBI was investigating them and sent me and many other victim's letter's for us to fill out but I like many other's was afraid to fill them out because I didn't want to go to court as a gullible idiot! Their scam was they would right a grant for you and allow you through their contacts up to $10,000,000 (my money was in the form of a contractual deposit fully refundable with 30 days notice; I gave them notice and they never paid me the money back) if you would do a business that provided benefit to society. It appears they are still in business. I like many here invested almost primarily because of a guy I knew at church that was doing it and was convinced it would make him rich. He actually sold his house and bought a large mansion because he had been "pre-approved" 6 months later after I hadn't got my "deposit" back I went to his new mansion he wasn't there but as it was an exclusive community his neighbor came and asked me what I wanted she gave me his new address and told me he had moved out about 3 months prior. His new address was a duplex (it sucked because he had like 7 kids) I assume he was renting. He later was pretty humble told me he was sorry and that they never materialized anything with him and that he lost his life saving's.
12/11/2007 10:41 AM by Dear Poor Sap
I hear all the time of bad deals and fraud. I am now a victim and I trusted what I considered friends. I don't know what will happen to them and frankly I don't care. I am just trying to take care of myself. I know that sounds selfish, but it is what it is.
12/11/2007 11:02 AM by PoorSap
P.S. I am trying to find out personal histories of these people, Wade Sleater, Rex Wheeler, Garret Gunderson. If anyone knows how long they have known each other, how long they have been in business together, how they are related, where they are now etc.
12/11/2007 11:15 AM by PoorSap
Wade Sleater owned Atlas dish marketing and knew Les McGuire from his mission. Wade owned the plane that Les was killed in. I believe Garrett was also from the mission, but I know they were all involved together in the Prosperity Revolution or Igenuity, which was a possitive thinking group. When Les was killed they had a public memorial. In this meeting Rick Koerber announced he was fulfilling Les' long time dream to join the FranklinSquire company and Ingenuity. Nobody else seemed to know anything about that being Les' "last wish". Rick became President and all the others (Garrett and Wade) became vice presidents. There was a falling out when Rick let Ingenuity die on the vine (it had competing principle with his own 13 principles). By this time Wade owned one of the major holding companies giving money to Founders (Koerbers investment company). When the Fed's shut off any new money coming in....they have all began to implode, starting with the bottom (Atlas, Hunter etc.) and will end with Founders and FranklinSquire. I have watched this from the outside for 3 years trying to see where the cracks were to get family members out, the problem is the cult-like following Rick,Garrett and Wade have because of thier mansions, cars, cruieses and producer...not...consumer attitudes (let the other poor smuck work not you) principles.
12/11/2007 11:48 AM by Just-a-following
I was supposed to own the plane that Les was killed in. I was going to "Capital Lease" the plane to him (what a joke) and get income for them using my credit to buy the plane. At least the insurance would have paid me back. I don't think Wade owned the plane, not sure on that one but another person represented to me that he owned it. I really feel like such an idiot getting involved with anyone from this web of people.
12/11/2007 11:55 AM by PoorSap
A few corrections to Just a Following:
Sleater was a co-owner of Atlas Marketing. Sleater became acquainted with Les when Engenuity rented the space across from them in Jamestown. Wade didn't own the plane. After the crash Franklin Squires and Engenuity figuratively merged with each other. Wade was made CEO of Engenuity and Gunderson was a CEO too. With all egos involved the "merger" failed in August 2007 and all three went their separate ways.
The rumor was that Rick and more specifically Founders Capital was always the big sugar-daddy that paid Wade, Les, Paul a huge percent on the money they brought to him. Some of the money given to those people by the downline was probably diverted into their own respective schemes (i.e. Hunter), but considering the rates FC was paying I bet most of it went there.
I wish I knew more. The person I knew was let go last summer. So most of it is second-hand and not complete, but I hope it helps.
12/11/2007 12:37 PM by Ragnar Danneskjöld
I hope they don't bend down to pick up the soap. They will have a whole new meaning to the "Paradigm of Abundance."
12/11/2007 01:29 PM by
My neighbor has invested with mr sleater...and for over a year now has sung his praise, and the principles he lives, and the teachings of this producer lifestyle...etc etc.... I tried to tell him it was a joke- I had met wade a few times, and had a few close friends who worked for him ....but this blog is too funny...everyone just stating whatever they think has happened and others taking it for gospel... And to "just a following" don't just make stuff up to be cool..... if you don't know...don't post it...if you know facts- post them...... Garrett and wade met on a mission? Might be tough...Garett isn't LDS Also I doubt Les and Wade were mission companions as Les was 6 years older than wade according the papers stating his age at death...- Also according to the newspapers Wade owned the plane- or other peoples money did...however it worked.. I hate to see other names getting pulled through this mess as I think Mr Sleater has been the master deceiver in his game... I think people like Rex and Garrett got duped into investing, as they trusted him, and he flat out lied....and wade has shown loyalty only to himself as he has even ruined lives of close friends and family...knowingly...yet seems to be walking away from this...trying to wash his hands of it- He'll end up getting his in the end:) good old karma But people like Garrett and Rex are supposedly "real estate experts and financial planners and amazing entrepreneurs "....so they should have known the economy cannot support 3-5% per month... and i don't feel bad for them if they lost money of their own or other peoples money... education is expensive sometimes...
12/11/2007 01:46 PM by if you don't know make it up.....
Wade owned the airplane "according to the newspaper" ? Listen ass wipe, if you are getting your facts from the newspaper you are worse off than any here in the arena of knowledge . BTW my condolences to you "neighbor". I suppose you do this "neighbor" favors by buying his Preparation H to save him the embarrassment. It's obvious you're trying to save face for RW or GG or both. What other names have been mentioned other that RK and WS?
Too bad you showed your hand trying to portray Rex and Garrett as being duped and victims. Are you trying to tell us that Wade came up with the concept of Capital Leasing and sprung in on Rex? That is pure BS amigo.
I will give you this, Garrett doesn't know much about anything. He thinks if he says something really forcefully and enthusiastically it somehow makes it more valid and accurate. He's like Tony Robbins--only more shallow. The gist of his pitch seems to be that 401ks are bad investments (sometimes true) high priced mutual funds suck (mostly true), and that whole life insurance is the way to go (WTF?). I don't want to argue the merits of the product he sells. The guy is just an insurance salesman who has deluded himself. Just check out his personal blog. It makes no sense. I could see him getting duped by Sleater, but I really doubt that's the way it happened.
12/11/2007 02:38 PM by To Mr Know it know it all above
Back to Atlas Marketing. I would like to call on those participating in this blog to respond and encourage others who are not aware of this blog to further discuss in greater detail past and present happenings at the former Atlas Marketing. This is not going to die quietly. These snakes will be held accountable.
I have a relative who was an "Independent Contractor" (Sales Rep) for the company. Early on when he was deciding whether he should work there, he asked my opinion as I had done door-to-door sales when I was his age. My advice was to find something else to do. This was not because door-to-door sales was too difficult (however, it is difficult) but because what he was relaying to me their business practices and they sounded far from acceptable. There were red flags everywhere. It sounded shockingly similar the movie "Boiler Room"
Against my advice, this young man decided to go engage with these people to earn money for his mission. While WADE SLEATER and DOUG ROBINSON are currently slithering around, this young man has been financially devastated and has struggled with his decision to serve at all. Where is Wade Sleater? Who knows. I understand Doug Robinson signed a huge contract at Pinnacle Marketing and currently feels no obligation to make reparations to people he has "led" astray. He claims HE is a victim. Can you believe that? What a joke. He has no business being a leader in ANY organization. Where is his accountability? Someone who knows this loser should contact him and have him stand up like a man!
12/11/2007 02:46 PM by Where is Doug Robinson?!?
I've never heard of Garrett prior to reading this blog, but the "401k vs. permanent insurance" pitch you mention rings a bell. I first heard of an insurance sales system called LEAP Systems probably a decade ago. They claim to provide a system (for insurnace salespeople) of "financial engineering" to present to insurance prospects/clients that shows a person how to optimize their long-term financial success. There's a good deal of math they run through really fast that few understand, a canned presentation that shows how poor of decisions you've been making (like the illustration that your 401k is a long-term money loser compared to alternatives or the foolishness of paying your mortgage down) and by the end of the engagement it "proves" that, when properly managed, permanent insurance will best meet your long-term goals. The similarities to what you describe lead me to believe that perhaps this System served as a springboard for some of Garretts financial philosophies.
I attended a CE class for life insurance agents some time ago and the instructor, a very knowledgable and surprisingly straightforward fellow considering his audience, was presented with a bit of the 401k vs. permanent insurance argument by one of the agents attending the class. The instructor asked this group of 30ish insurance agents how many of them recommend permanent life insurance as a means of accumulating money for retirement...most (probably 90%) raised their hands and he left it at that. In our next session, a week later, he asked the same group how many of them had retired clients who derive a signficant portion of their standard of living from their 401k or IRAs... well over half of the hands went up. Later that night he asked the same group who probably represent thousands of clients how many of them had retired clients who derived a significant portion of their standard of living from Permanent Life Insurance policies...not a single hand went up, not one, and he waited a long time for somebody to raise their hand. He then asked these insurance agents to ignore the fancy speeches and the detailed mathematical proofs of the concept (and the lofty commissions they earn) for a moment and look at the real-life implications and results of what they are proposing and ask themselves what works for retirement and what doesn't.
OK, probably a little off topic, but your mention of Garrett's life insurance philosophy triggered the thought and I like the story.
12/11/2007 03:24 PM by juanpedro
I've never heard of Garrett prior to reading this blog, but the "401k vs. permanent insurance" pitch you mention rings a bell. I first heard of an insurance sales system called LEAP Systems probably a decade ago. They claim to provide a system (for insurnace salespeople) of "financial engineering" to present to insurance prospects/clients that shows a person how to optimize their long-term financial success. There's a good deal of math they run through really fast that few understand, a canned presentation that shows how poor of decisions you've been making (like the illustration that your 401k is a long-term money loser compared to alternatives or the foolishness of paying your mortgage down) and by the end of the engagement it "proves" that, when properly managed, permanent insurance will best meet your long-term goals. The similarities to what you describe lead me to believe that perhaps this System served as a springboard for some of Garretts financial philosophies.
I attended a CE class for life insurance agents some time ago and the instructor, a very knowledgable and surprisingly straightforward fellow considering his audience, was presented with a bit of the 401k vs. permanent insurance argument by one of the agents attending the class. The instructor asked this group of 30ish insurance agents how many of them recommend permanent life insurance as a means of accumulating money for retirement...most (probably 90%) raised their hands and he left it at that. In our next session, a week later, he asked the same group how many of them had retired clients who derive a signficant portion of their standard of living from their 401k or IRAs... well over half of the hands went up. Later that night he asked the same group who probably represent thousands of clients how many of them had retired clients who derived a significant portion of their standard of living from Permanent Life Insurance policies...not a single hand went up, not one, and he waited a long time for somebody to raise their hand. He then asked these insurance agents to ignore the fancy speeches and the detailed mathematical proofs of the concept (and the lofty commissions they earn) for a moment and look at the real-life implications and results of what they are proposing and ask themselves what works for retirement and what doesn't.
OK, probably a little off topic, but your mention of Garrett's life insurance philosophy triggered the thought and I like the story.
12/11/2007 03:24 PM by juanpedro
"Wade Sleater owned Atlas dish marketing and knew Les McGuire from his mission. Wade owned the plane that Les was killed in. I believe Garrett was also from the mission, but I know they were all involved together in the Prosperity Revolution or Igenuity, which was a possitive thinking group. When Les was killed they had a public memorial. In this meeting Rick Koerber announced he was fulfilling Les' long time dream to join the FranklinSquire company and Ingenuity. Nobody else seemed to know anything about that being Les' "last wish". Rick became President and all the others (Garrett and Wade) became vice presidents. There was a falling out when Rick let Ingenuity die on the vine (it had competing principle with his own 13 principles). By this time Wade owned one of the major holding companies giving money to Founders (Koerbers investment company). When the Fed's shut off any new money coming in....they have all began to implode, starting with the bottom (Atlas, Hunter etc.) and will end with Founders and FranklinSquire. I have watched this from the outside for 3 years trying to see where the cracks were to get family members out, the problem is the cult-like following Rick,Garrett and Wade have because of thier mansions, cars, cruieses and producer...not...consumer attitudes (let the other poor smuck work not you) principles."
A- Garrett isn't LDS.
B- From what I know, Atlas didn't have money with Founders.
C- Stop writing. You know nothing, and you'll only get yourself in trouble by spreading BS.
12/11/2007 03:48 PM by Complete Horse Shit
I am an Atlas Capital investor and I just got of the phone with Wade Sleater. Wade has hired a law firm to take control of the liquidation of assets. He has done this to prevent people from taking unfair advantage of this situation and to establish a clear line of communication with investors. I thank him for this and encourage other investors to be patient in this process.
I have also done business with Rick Koerber and have found him to be honest and well intended.
I came to this website hoping to find useful information but it seems to be full of people with nothing better to do than to spew hate and negativity. It must be difficult to live life when you see nothing but darkness in everything you look at.
12/11/2007 04:36 PM by Aaron
Thanks for the insight Wade, I mean Aaron.
12/11/2007 04:56 PM by JP
I agree with your sentiments. Would you mind providing me with the contact info of the law firm? Also, if you wouldn't mind, how can I get in contact with Wade? Has he got a new number? My calls and emails don't seem to be getting through. Thanks!
12/11/2007 05:01 PM by to Aaron
TAKE ADVANTAGE, give me a break. This whole thing smells like horse crap. Liquidation of his assets? I kicked him out of his house, he made his payment in November in rent to me, moves out then cancels the check with his bank on December 6th. I have facts, I have my credit to show how these people have ruined my good name. I am sick of all of you defending him and the rest of these people, I am living proof.
LEAP, heard of it, it is crap also. Was sold that bill of goods a few years ago, thank God I didn't buy into it. I have a whole life policy but never stopped my 401(k) and company retirement. I don't care if Garrett isn't LDS, he associates with them and from what I can tell they will screw you especially if you are an out of state Protestant like me.
I HAVE FACTS not innuendo, I am a victim of their fraud. I made mistakes and misjudgments and I am not denying that. When someone represents to you that these are good people, I should verify. I trusted Rex Wheeler and his machine and that is why I am here. Stop the preaching Aaron not one thing has led me to believe any of these people are honest. Their sales pitches, ridiculous billboards, false "paradigms" and reliance on teachings of philosophers is snake oil tactics that needs to be exposed for what it is. You can verify anything I am saying, try me.
P.S. Aaron, next time you talk to Wade ask him to pay the good folks who built his (read mine) garage, pool and fence. They are waiting his well intended payment. Oh wait, he told them he was leaving and to put a lien on the property to be paid. Nice LDS ethics.
12/11/2007 05:06 PM by
Dear 'if you don't know make it up' and Aaron,
Stop your self righteous preaching. This is a blog for people to gather information. Some people (good people) have lost a lot of money and they are just trying to figure out why. Sleater has done some awful things, but don't assume Wheeler and Gunderson or any other names in this web of deceit are innocent. Save the preaching for Sunday as you gather at the temple.
12/11/2007 05:08 PM by
By the way, the post 2 above this is me. Forgot to sign my name.
12/11/2007 05:09 PM by PoorSap
K, lets do some math....
I'm glad to hear that Wade has set stuff up to liquidate his assets. But lets see how this is going to work to pay off his investors.
He owns tons of cars, a couple homes (Kyle's house was in Wade's name) but everything was mortaged to the hilt. K, $1,000,000 home mortgaged at $1.3 but it's really only worth $925,000. Hmmm..., i'm not brainiac, but that doesn't leave anything left over to pay off anybody. Even the mortgage holder is going to end up being short.
K, $100,000 G55, $500,000 Porche Carrera GT. Both loans at 150%. So you sell both those cars, and what happens to the money??? It goes to the note holder and nothing to the investors. Wow, looks like these investors are going to be okay.
12/11/2007 05:26 PM by Bill
By the way, Doug Robinson was knew exactly what was going on. He was just as willing as anyone to invest him money with Wade
12/11/2007 05:30 PM by Bill
I wish we could keep all the "LDS", "temple", "Utah Mormon" type of stuff out of this except as it relates to what actually happened (there are fair statements that can be made). I've seen crooks in every state I've lived in and although crooked deals are often propogated via religious "affinity" I assure you that neither the LDS faith nor Utah County holds a corner on the scam market. PoorSap, I feel your pain at your loss (financial, credit, time, hair, etc.) and the abuse you're taking, you don't deserve it, but it's not fair to label it "LDS Ethics" -- the people you dealt with would be wrong regardless of their faith, or lack thereof and really could just have easily been any religion. I must say that other than that I think PoorSap has been the most insightful poster and I wish that we had more people willing to outline their real-life experiences with these groups. I appreciate what people are adding, I just wish everyone would review their comments a couple of times before hitting "Submit" so we don't wind up with some of the obvious misinformation and the off-target judgementalism.
12/11/2007 05:36 PM by
Wade doesn't own a G55 or Porsche. I think you have him confused with someone else. He drives some Astin Martin. I saw him in it the other day. I guess it's all the same anyway.
12/11/2007 05:37 PM by To Bill
The garage isn't finished but last I saw the bricks were still out front. A huge play set was still in the yard but it looks like some of the people he owes money may be taking it away? I would get over there and get what you can before Sleater comes and gets it. I would file some type of legal lien agains his personal items, he does have O.J. Simpson type assets. This guy is some piece of work. The house is in canyon cove estates for the guy that is trying to find out where he was living. Just look for the unfinished garage that is facing the road.
12/11/2007 05:42 PM by for poor sap
Wade did own a G55 and a Porsche and an Astin Martin. Not to mention a whole lot of other things.
12/11/2007 05:51 PM by
good info! jess rankin
12/11/2007 05:59 PM by Jess Rankin
Thanks for the comments. I am not sure he or any of the people involved own anything so liens are useless. They are masterful at passing assets off on to other people. I would be willing to bet his cars are Capital Leased or someone else's money bought it. I believe it is the same for the whole lot of them. I am finding things where I live where these people (not just Wade) invested in deals put up money they called their own, turns out just like everything else, OPM.
I am just trying to wash my hands of this whole mess. I know about the bricks, the contractor has called me to be repaid, and let me know he was taking the materials away. Sad thing is, if this thing forecloses (to my credit detriment), these guys won't get paid because they have financed 110% of the value of the house after improvements.
I am sorry for the LDS comments, I don't mean to be stereotypical. I am just disgusted at how some people who hold themselves out to be men of God continue to rip people off. They all have no problem quoting all of your founding fathers as they espouse these so called principals, therefore I stereotype.
Funny how the defenders are quieter now. I don't know how they can defend these people to me, it is a position you can't defend to me. Facts speak for themselves.
12/11/2007 09:39 PM by PoorSap
The focus of the PRs seems to be to tell people that they did nothing wrong, though some associates may have made errors on their own. They also appear to be trying to create more layers of "business entities" between themselves and their investors, something they have done a lot of in the past, I believe to dilute and obfuscate any connections to the end-investor level and insulate themselves from liability. It may work, it may not, it certainly has worked for them so far from a legal perspective, but their denials in the PRs do not ring true to the casual reader.
Simply posting a press release doesn't insulate anyone from liability. This is simply a way to make the public think that there's no connection. I don't know if there is a connection between Founders and Hunters. I'll let the legal and law enforcement people decide that. However, I do agree that the PRs do not ring true. If anything they reek of trying to paint a picture of everything being alright when they're really falling apart.
12/11/2007 09:40 PM by typo
Wade has owned a BMW 5 Serious, Range Rover, 911 Turbo, Astin Martin, Porche Carrera GT, and a G55. So to the person above, get your facts straight.
12/11/2007 10:09 PM by Bill
So is Wade really bankrupt? Sounds like he is still driving his cars. Did he stash money away? Is he really broke, or is this just a way of not paying back his depts?
12/11/2007 10:15 PM by
Let's get over what cars Wade drove as a pissing contest on who knows what. This blog started as a real estate fraud discussion, keep it that way. Not just Wade, there are others here that are frauds, liars and cheats. They need to be exposed for what they have done to innocent people. I would ask anyone to come forward on here, tell your story and allow us to learn the extent of this. I am just trying to see how duped I was (obviously a lot) and to learn I am not the only one.
It doesn't matter what he drives, what he had in his house or what he is trying to liquidate (that is laughable to say the least). I want to hear stories and try and see how deep this thing is. If y'all want to continue to see who can piss farther on how much you know, I will leave and figure this out for myself.
Thanks
12/11/2007 10:21 PM by PoorSap
Thought I would throw my 2 cents in. First, I don't think there can be any dispute that Wade and several of his associates were engaged in extremely questionable activity and misled many many people. Although, with that said, all the people that were misled were chasing money and were gambling to the fullest extent of the word....I don't think there are many that could truly claim to be "investing". Nothing about what I have read resembles investing as much as it resembles trying to win the lottery (something for nothing). Unfortunately the luck ran out, everyone made one bet too many and the dealer/house took it all.
When it comes to Rick I think we still need to see how things pan out for him and see what further information comes out. My honest opinion is that he is visionary and a lot of people hopped on his band-wagon and skewed his ideas and took advantage of people that were interested in Rick's philosophy and strategies. While he does seem to be heavily associated with a lot of the trouble I don't think he fits in the sme category as Wade.
Why Garrett is even being brought up I really do not understand. (yeah yeah - everyone call me a Garrett lover...or whatever). Yes he was associated with them with a company that was a membership type thing to bring together like-minded people for discussion etc, and yes he was a partner in a company that primarily sold life insurance. Those companies are gone and Garrett seems to have been seperated from them for some time. My understanding is that he seems to only be brought up because he actually can be contacted at his legitimate business...and most people are trying to get to his past partners through him.
Finally - Les's name has been brought up a few times. Talk to ANYONE that had dealings with Les and I am confident that you will only hear the highest praise and respect for his business interactions. The good things he started have been manipulated and distorted by these other greedy people who seem to lack the principles they claim to have learned from Les.
Don't group all of these people together and claim "guilty by association" especially considering how guilty almost everyone is/was by wanting to join with them to make the money....everyone was kissing their butts when the cash was flowing. Everyone had the chance to jump off the train or never get on the train. You made your beds, you should try and do everything legally that you can if you were misled or if things were misrepresented....but like it or not - all of these people are innocent until proven guilty...
12/11/2007 10:22 PM by Some dude who knows everything
To the bankrupt question, that is why I am here, I need to know where these people are, what they are doing and how they are living. I would assume if this was going on in New York, they would probably be damaged pretty bad physically. Guido has a way of taking care of unpaid debts.
12/11/2007 10:24 PM by
I just wanted to post a few items regarding Atlas Marketing and Wade Sleater. For the record, Atlas owes well over $2 million to its "credit card investors" and at least that much to its employees in backend payments and has $0 assets to its name. Thats not all, I understand that atlas didn't make its payments to the IRS either for payroll taxes and owes many vendors. I heard someone say when you are getting 3% a month it makes sense to pay the interest and penalites IRS. Crazy. Not to mention, one of the employees of Atlas got his dad to lend Sleater millions of dollars so that atlas could pay its reps and credit card investors. Problem was, Wade felt he needed to use the money elsewhere and from what I hear used some of the money to pay off his own personal credit card. This guys is a total con artist who never learned the value of a dollar or he wouldn't have treated others like he did. He needs to go to jail as he has no money to pay everyone back.
So lets see who all will be chasing Mr. Sleater:
Credit Card Investors $2 million
Atlas Employees $2 million
IRS ???
Atlas Capital $??? million?
People like Porsap $??? million
As for Doug Robinson he is at Pinnacle and was paid a great deal of money to go there. I head that his contract was sent around Pinnacle and he was paid over $500,000 and a hefty override to go there. I don't know what his culpibility was in this case but anyone who was on the inside with Wade who didn't see this coming was either a crook or just plain reckless.
I am LDS and I attended the tribute to Les and was offended that they would use the teachings of the church to con people into their little producer revolution. The principles of the producer revoultion are the complete opposite of the teachings of the LDS church. The lds church has consistently taught to avoid debt, save for a rainey day, and live within your means.
12/11/2007 10:24 PM by Atlas Deception
"First, I don't think there can be any dispute that Wade and several of his associates were engaged in extremely questionable activity and misled many many people. Although, with that said, all the people that were misled were chasing money and were gambling to the fullest extent of the word....I don't think there are many that could truly claim to be "investing"."
Don't assume anything about me, you don't know my situation nor do you know the pitch. It is easy to look back and preach and say people were stupid, gambling, etc. Smart people were duped, plain and simple. I know a lot of smart people who invested in Enron by being duped, and people like you come off so self righteous with comments like that. Give me a break.
I am not a moron, I have always prided myself on being a reasonably intelligent investor. Trust me, I don't need to "win the lottery" as you so eloquently put it. I did not "kiss butts" and think you should not make generalizations. I have not accused anyone, I am just stating FACT that has happened to me. I would hope you can tell the difference. Think before you type.
P.S. The time I met Les, I thought he was one of the most pompous arrogant people I had ever met. I am sorry he is dead and can't defend himself, it is just how I felt.
P.S.S. Not all people are innocent until proven guilty. They are PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. That is criminal law, civil issues are an entirely different matter Mr. Law Scholar.
12/11/2007 10:37 PM by PoorSap
Has anyone every heard or dealt with Mike Medina?
12/11/2007 10:37 PM by Poor Investment Fundementals
Yes, I know of him. A friend of mine has a house he Capital Leased from him. Part of the Ockham folks.
12/11/2007 10:41 PM by
He who knows everything
What is visionary about telling people you can provide them with a liquid 3% to 4% a month and tell them that it is a myth that high returns don't require high risk? The only vision that produces those results are typically after smoking something that is not legal. Wade, Les, Ray, Rick were all in this revolution together and were all out trying to get people to put money into their "holding funds" witht the 3% to 4% returns. Then whats crazy is you put your face on billboards all over town telling people to "turn your brain on" and "I am the Free Capilalist". What they all did was get people to turn their brains off and then to sell them on communism as only in communism are their guarantees and they all end in misery. You see capitalism relys on markets to measure risk by the returns. Over time the return adjusts to a market return. Sure, in the begining you can get better than market returns for the risk you are bearing, but over time competition comes in and adequately prices the return based on the risk. The only time this doesn't happen is with a monopoly where the market can not function and the return in much higher than the risk. Lets all turn our brains on and call a spade a spade.
12/11/2007 10:41 PM by Lets be real
PoorSap
I feel for you. I know of two people who are in the same situation you are. They are good honorable people who were taken advantage of. Both of them were being paid $500 a month per house from one of wades companies who were renting the homes. Wade took all the equity and then some out of the home, took the rent money, and failed to pay the mortgages last month then left them high and dry with mortgages that are over $5,000 a month less than the rents. Don't let Wade get away with this. I understand he is living with his brother in law who I think was the accountant at Atlas. I am sure someone on this website can tell you where he is living.
12/11/2007 10:48 PM by
One last thing about Garret Gunderson. Go to his website and see his book "Killing Sacred Cows". Its the whole producer revolution in paperback. One of the "Sacred Cows" that he says needs to be killed is "the most lucrative investments are by nature the lowest risk". This guy is scary. see garrettbgunderson.com
12/11/2007 10:55 PM by Lets be real
Thanks for the post and the story. I don't know what I could do if I did find him other than shake his hand (begrudgingly) and look into his eyes man to man and see him speak for what he has done face to face. I would also like to ask his family how proud they are of their father/husband for all the great things he has done. He will get his due I am a believer in what goes around comes around. I just don't know what I can do. He has no assets to go after, heck he is living in a basement according to some on here. Rex Wheeler and Ockham got me messed up with this guy and many other less than stellar people.
12/11/2007 10:59 PM by PoorSap
Saw his website, pic, etc. How arrogant do you have to be to post 30 or so photos of yourself in front of your Bentley with your wife and kid? Also saw photos of Wheeler and others there. These people are too much, it almost reads like a mystery novel.
12/11/2007 11:01 PM by
I just visited the Garrett B Gunderson website. Are you kidding me? There is actually a picture slideshow of his spouse, his son, his shoes (yes, I said shoes!) and his car. These people are so full of themselves. They are crooks, plain and simple.
I can't believe he actually photographed his shoes!!!!!
12/11/2007 11:08 PM by Poor Investment Fundementals
Yes the shoes were funny. The one that bothers me is all of the "Professionals" Wheeler, et. al. meeting in a conference room. Probably a meeting on how to squeeze money from more honest people.
12/11/2007 11:26 PM by
PoorSap, I think you are spot-on when you refer to the spewing of Church doctrine by some of these individuals as part of the creation of trust, greasing the gears towards the eventual sales pitch for whatever. If I hear "God is a Capitalist" one more time (and I'm sure I will) I think I'll puke -- I gotta believe that an all-knowing, all-powerful being can and will do better than we mortals. There was a time when Mosaic Law was the inspired governing law from God, but it didn't mean that God was up in heaven living the Mosaic law himself, killing unblemished sheep and stuff. I think that one day (not in our lifetimes but in Gods time) our democracy and capitalism will seem as odd and primitive as the Mosaic law does now. I believe that there was inspiration, even divine intervention in the creation of our nation, but that doesn't mean ideals like the constitution define the principals that govern diety -- my humble opinion, God is not a Capitalist and I doubt that he takes humor in being labeled such and I would think that it saddens Him when people are brought to believe that kind of thing. I heard a few minutes of a radio spot (maybe I misinterpret it as I had to change back to my sports station as I couldn't take it anymore) where they said that Jesus crucifixion was done out of self-interest, to obtain gain and reward in the next life for himself -- I think they missed the all-important part about "...not my will, but thine, be done." My apologies if not "on topic".
PoorSap, your comment "your founding fathers" seems to indicate that you felt such discussion was about the Church's founders, whenever I've heard it discussed on the radio it has been in reference to the nation's founding fathers.
Lastly, PoorSap, no pressure to answer this but from your posts I gather that you bought/owned the house in question but you refer to "they" took out 110% of the equity -- would you provide a paragraph on whose name is on the title of the house and whose name is on the various liens and where the money goes? You've already given a lot here and I wouldn't begrudge you not adding more if you don't want to.
12/11/2007 11:27 PM by
My name is on the title. I am not comfortable to share my name here, it is not that hard to find. The liens are placed by three contractors. A fence guy, a pool guy and the guy who did the garage. I am not at will to share their names either. It is all in the public record. If you want to contact me you can do so, I just don't know how to make that happen. I would love to know why you are asking.
As far as the "your founding fathers" comments go, they do quote Joseph Smith and many other from the LDS church that I do not know. I understand they quote many US founding fathers, Ayn Rand, etc. BTW your comments on "God is a capitalist" is so true. Made my stomach turn when RK and Les espoused this a few years ago.
12/11/2007 11:36 PM by PoorSap
Okay, Poor Sap, I apologize for grouping everyone together the way I was telling everyone to not group the con-men and their assoicates together. I sincerely apologize and understand where you are coming from. The truth is that the majority of people were simply being sheep and I did try and throw a caveat in there to account for a few people that were truly decieved into investing.
The excuse of people being duped by Enron doesn't go very far either. All those people that had ALL of their retirement in Enron stock were gambling just as much as the people chasing 5%/month with Wade.
Do all investors have the responsibility for your own money and investments? Do they actually perform their due diligence or are they simply giving up their money for others to take care of so they don't have to think about it? That does not mean what the handful of evil people at Enron and what some of the people mentioned above have doen is right or legal - but people willingly entrusted money or their credit to them.
To "Let's be real" - How do you know Rick, Wade, Les & Ray were all selling the holding funds? All I am aware of Les and Ray peddling was life insurance. Yes they all were part of the Producer Revolution....but I have seen nothing about any holding fund that Les or Ray was associated with.
12/11/2007 11:41 PM by Some dude who knows everything
PoorSap, thanks for the input, I'm not curious about people's names or the upgrades on the house. I didn't communicate my question well. When you bought the house your name was put on the title as the owner and you took out a loan. Subsequent to that it sounds like additional loans were added to the property -- it's these loans I'm wondering about. Did they have you take out more debt and then they kept the money? Did they have you take out more loans and you kept the proceeds? At some point "they" got a bunch of cash at your expense and moved it into their accounts and I can't figure out where that's happening unless it's from additional loans that you take out after the purchase and turn over the proceeds of the loan to "them". Again, I'm not looking for names, just am figuring out how all these "Holding Companies" got cash from these transactions and what promises they made to the invetors to make it worth their while to take out the loans and assume the associated risk of default. Also, I don't understand the term "Lease Agreement" or the context, I assume it's an agreement to pay you rent after the property is purchased? What are the terms, did it cover all the monthly loan payments? Were you making a monthly profit? How long was it supposed to continue?
12/11/2007 11:49 PM by
Some Dude,
I was not referring to Enron retirement plan investors, but since you mentioned let me give you a history lesson. When Enron imploded ther corporate 401(k) was frozen as they were changing Administrators and the employees could do nothing for 6 weeks. They went to rah rah meeting after rah rah meeting with Lay, Skilling, and everyone else talking up the company. I know many people who worked there, be careful not to generalize. With that being said, I was referring to many very highly compensated investors like the Portfolio Manager of Alliance Bernstein Growth Fund which had it's number 1 holding in Enron before it went down. Would you care to call this person stupid or was he duped? I will say he didn't do proper research but not a lottery gambler, trust me.
Back to topic...
Stop being so self righteous. Don't defend the indefensible, look at the writing on the wall.
12/11/2007 11:51 PM by PoorSap
My mom was victimized as well and had a conversation with Wade in late Nov where he consistently spoke of how Atlas Capital is in the process of liquidating its assets. I wanted to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, but there's no longer any doubt in my mind - I can't find any real assets still owned by him or his company and what appear to be recent sales or transfers haven't yielded anything back to the investors. Is he using the proceeds to pay off his friends and family first, or is he just keeping it?
(DISCLAIMER: I'm no RE expert so I could be missing something, but I gathered the following information to the best of my ability off a public website [link below] - please keep in mind that the companies and names on the public records may have nothing to do with the scheme, but I wanted to throw them out in case they ring a bell to any victims of similar scams)...
http://www.co.utah.ut.us/Dept/Record/LandRecordsandMaps/WebAccess.asp
997 N 1560 EAST OREM UT 84097-4438 (serial #65:006:0060)
Last Status: 11/28/07 TRUSTOR Weston W Sleater "…conveys and warrants to trustee in trust, with power of sale…" to BENEFICIARY Pario Financial LLC. (not sure what this is exactly, but it speaks of $267K worth of something or other with this most recent transaction)
1333 S 1140 E, Orem, UT 84058 (serial #35:437:0002)
Last Status: 10/17/07 GRANTOR Weston Sleater, GRANTEE Aspen Capital LLC (looks like sale or transfer of property)
3520 N University Ave, Ste 300, Provo, UT 84604 (Units J & K or Ste 300 & 350) (serial #'s 36:793:0019, 36:793:0020, 65:226:0009, 65:226:0010)
Last Status: 10/17/07 GRANTOR ATLAS PROPERTY MANAGEMENT & DEVELOPMENT LC, GRANTEE Aspen Capital LLC (looks like sale or transfer of property)
1432 E Lancaster Way, Orem, UT 84097 (serial #36:868:0033)
Last Status: 1/19/07 $1.2M loan taken out on property?
8963 N TORREY PINES LOOP EAGLE MOUNTAIN UT 84005 (serial #46:543:0003)
Last Status: 7/31/06 Looks like outstanding mortgages paid off on this date. Title may have been transferred to a Mike Isom on 6/21/06.
47 W 700 NORTH PROVO UT 84601-1681 (serial #21:010:0051)
Last Status: 6/26/06 Title may have been transferred to a Spencer Sorenson and/or 'Rad Ventures LLC'.
If there are other victims out there who were fed the same line, please come forward with any info you have related to the ACTUAL assets that Atlas is 'liquidating'. Otherwise, PLEASE file a complaint with the Utah Division of Securities (link below)...
http://www.securities.utah.gov/complaint_general.html
With any bureaucracy, 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil'. The more victims that come forward, the quicker we may see some justice. At the very least, hopefully these people won't be able to victimize others.
PoorSap - If you happen to be in VA, I'd love to see if there is a way to research similar properties Wade may be tied to there to see if there are any commonalities in recent sales/transfers/ownership (looks like he may own or may have owned some properties there).
PS - Does anyone find it funny that Franklin Squires is issuing so many recent press releases trying to separate them from this mess that they haven't had time to proofread? :)
12/12/2007 12:00 AM by concerned family member
I have never felt any comfort or peace of mind when hearing the words "God is a Capitalist," and I think "some things are true whether you believe them or not" is a true statement, but not in this case.
It is not doctrinal or scriptural to call God a capitalist by name, and frankly, every case I have ever heard or seen where someone seeks to prove it as such does nothing more than mingle the philosophies of men with God's revealed word.
12/12/2007 12:02 AM by The Capitalist comment
In their defense Anon, they did not take out any more credit. I just question the appraisal of the house when it was purchased. I have reason to believe (no proof) that the appraisals were artificially inflated and money loaned from the bank was in excess of what the house was worth. I am not willing to share my reasons for believing this here, let's just say I can see a little bit of smoke that leads me to believe there is a fire somewhere.
12/12/2007 12:06 AM by PoorSap
When Enron collapsed I looked at the holdings of the mutual funds I owned and nearly all of them had some Enron in them! I gotta say that these fund managers are neither stupid nor gambling nor greedy -- they were lied to (completely cooked books at Enron). There's a reason that fraud is illegal and that people go to jail for it, because it takes away a persons ability to make a reasonable decision, to measure the risk associated with an investment. When fraud is involved it's really hard for me to look at the victim and say they deserved it or they should have done better due diligence or some rubbish like that. Millions of dollars was spent preparing Enrons books, millions more spent auditing Enrons books, millions more spent by analysts scrutinizing Enrons books and audits, tough to then call an investor a Sap for taking the plunge. Lack of diversification is a separate issue, of course, and some investors were a bit foolish to go "all-in", but I digress. I'm not saying that the folks and/or transactions we're discussing here committed fraud as I've impplied that Enron did, just proposing that you may want to lighten up a little on people who are defrauded as it's never as simple as it seems to the outsider and it's never as obvious in real time as it is after the fact. That's why we're talking about it, to see what really went down and how we can learn from it, and we can all hope that those who got screwed will be made whole somewhere down the line.
12/12/2007 12:07 AM by
Concerned,
I am not in VA, sorry. BTW, is there really an LLC called "Rad Ventures?" Wow, that's freaking funny. Sounds like a sound one to me!
12/12/2007 12:11 AM by PoorSap
Concerned,
I am not in VA, sorry. BTW, is there really an LLC called "Rad Ventures?" Wow, that's freaking funny. Sounds like a sound one to me!
12/12/2007 12:11 AM by PoorSap
Those Utah County tax documents look like some investors have basically taken properties.
One of those addresses was the Atlas office address, and it would make sense since the property name was Atlas Property Management and Development.
12/12/2007 12:14 AM by to concerned family member
Get a load of this
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2315625
12/12/2007 12:17 AM by Inflated values?
PoorSap - I am generalizing about the largest groups involved here (and Enron for that matter) all of the people that honestly had no business "investing" in something they didn't even remotely understand - they saw dollar $ign$ and that was it - and they were GAMBLING.
No doubt there are some smart people that were completely deceived - but these are the minority and mostly silent becuase they know they are ultimately responsible. Again, I apologize for not being clear enough to separate you and a few others from the larger group of "victims".
I was not trying to defend anyone, but until there are more facts I think it is difficult to group all of these people together. You have done business with them also, you essentially housed who appears to be one of the largest deceivers...should your name be up there with them? You have done business with him, are you guilty? Of course not (at least it appears not until actual facts should prove otherwise), thats all I am getting at.
I honestly have no bad feelings towards you - quite the opposite. My comments were mostly sparked by all the people piping in and saying completely absurd things with no support or anything. I hate these comment boards that go on and on with the most moronic comments. Like when a person with a latin name commits a crime and all the postings go on about sending the Mexicans back to Mexico - when the person in the news story is like a 3rd generation Portuguese American who doesn't even speak Spanish or Portuguese!!
The writing is on the wall but it is too full of hearsay and stupidity to make any solid judgements and I'd prefer to see the associated names brought up once they are actually investigated and when there are facts that warrant them being discussed. I will admit that I have done business with Garrett's current company. I'll admit that his website and the pictures of shoes are perhaps a bit much to some, but he is essentially marketing himself as a speaker (even if you and a some others don't like all of his ideas...) this is what he is selling rather than holding funds.
12/12/2007 12:17 AM by Some dude who knows everything
A lot of people in a lot of instances that allowed the Wade Sleaters of the world (crooks) to use their names may have some legal problems of their own. #1. Several of these homes were purchased under the assumption of owner occupancy and never were occupied. #2. In most cases loan fraud was committed during the loan approval process, sometimes without the (real) buyers knowledge. #3. An appraiser and or some for of coersement with an agent had to have been involved to over appraise, gather together several fisbo contracts etc. to get these appraisals high enough to pull out the $250K. If these lenders aren't out of business already they will come head hunting first for the person on title and then they may take time to hear your story but probably not. #4. The IRS will want the cut from interest income from the investment money that you didn receive. #5. I know that the Attorney General is working with the division of real estate to put together cases because of all of the fraud with with equity skimming. I suggest anyone that has been conned and lost to contact the district attorneys office and report the case. This will help you in the long run with the lender, the IRS and the division of real estate and the district attorneys as they will find you any way. For sure anyone involved in the Sleater situation because it is so tight knit......Many of his boys lived in Canyon Cove Estates as was the case with Sleater. As is the case with Doug Robinson. Kyle Nelson moved, Kevin Swift moved and Doug Barnett moved all within the last 2 weeks. I think that they will be able to put this case together and string these homes together with the appraisals etc. fairly easily.
12/12/2007 12:23 AM by sorry for poor sap but...
My point exactly - the last post by "by sorry for poor sap but...". Kevin Swift?? Never heard of him. We better leave this to the investigators to sort out - seriously. Someone is going to Google some poor guy named Kevin Swift and go toilet paper his house and he isn't going to have any clue as to why people are giving him grief about buying or selling his credit....but I am pretty sure he'll say "who would sell their credit to other people?" That's all you've got in this world anymore...you're good credit and hopefully not a name that sounds like one of these dudes.
12/12/2007 12:30 AM by Some dude who...
Wade Sleater and his crew have conned, manipulated and stolen funds from a hundred different people totalling more than $30 million dollars that was recently frozen by the powers to be. You come into the room and defend him? Based on what..... The guy added the garage on poor saps house, built the pool knowing that he wouldn't pay the contractors. This guy was all show, no conscience at all. Stole from his long time family friends, his business partners and anyone that would listen.
12/12/2007 12:34 AM by To Aaron the blind man
I hear Sleater had an interest in AMP gym in Provo - just a rumor. (one of the many companies he had) If your contractors are looking for him.
12/12/2007 12:41 AM by To poor sap
What's this guy Sleater thinking? If I understand what you folks are saying he added a pool, garage and fence to a crib he was RENTING? Remember a couple of years ago when Carlos Boozer found out that the house he was renting to Prince (or Artist Formerly Known as Prince, or whatever he's calling himself now) had been painted purple because Prince was having an album party there and thought it would be cool to paint the house he was RENTING his signature color? I remember losing my deposit on my rental in college for not having cleaned the bathroom to the owners expectations, the world has changed.
12/12/2007 12:42 AM by
the poweres to be? I'm going to bed. Please someone find a way to automatically proofread and spell-chech all forums so postings make sense and are intelligent - then you will make $30 million
12/12/2007 12:42 AM by no more please
Tell the truth, did you intentionally misspell "spell-chech" or was it a slip up?
12/12/2007 12:45 AM by
Poorsap,
I think it fair to assume that the home to which you have an encumbered title probably appraised for an inflated value. I feel for your loss in this situation.
I am curious about the structure of your transaction with the home. You mentioned it was a capital lease. I imagine the scenario goes something like this, but could be wrong. A holding company/or private party investor first purchases the home (e.g. - for $2MM), then Sleater signs a lease (basically at an above market rate, e.g. - $25K/month). The property is then sold to you with an assumed income stream from the lease. This income justifies a higher price than the more recent transation (e.g - $3MM) and can be used by the bank/appraiser as a way to guage the value of the asset. The investor and/or Sleater comes to you and say the house is worth $3 MM, but he'll sell it to you for $2.5MM. You buy it assuming you have an equity position and an income stream to justify the purchase. The lender figures the asset is covered by the equity, your credit, and the income from the lease. The investor walks away with profit (e.g. $500k) and you are happy with an investment that pays out more than the cost. Is this roughly how the transaction worked?
By the way, I am not involved in this mess outside of the fact that I have been watching this fiasco unfold for the past few years since my brother worked for Atlas one summer. My questions are designed to help some of the more naive parties involved understand the structure of transactions that supposedly created wealth. Understanding can then help people follow the money trail. Assuming you validate this scenario, then it is really easy to outline who was likely to benefit from each transaction and how the capital leases likely tied together with the holding/investement companies. Then the posters on this board can more easily untangle the complex web this mess has created.
12/12/2007 02:16 AM by Unwinding the web
- only an asshole would post a phone number on a public message board. What a joke.
- Enough faking from the former Sleater employees. There's too much personal information being divulged. It's obvious you're here.
- I'm disappointed in humanity. Two wrongs don't make a right.
- What's next? Stealing? Claiming it's okay because someone stole from you?
12/12/2007 02:34 AM by asshole
No need to post phone numbers. I have his phone, his wife's phone, his accounant's phone, his email, his wife's email. Needless to say they don't speak to me after he moved out and stopped payment on a check he mailed 3 1/2 weeks prior, so it is useless. Don't know what they could do if they did answer their phone.
The Capital Lease is not how you described on here. It is much more involved than that. It is basically a way to acquire real estate with someone else's credit, I owned Wade's house that he lived in. He paid a monthly payment to Diversifid Escrow (one of Ockham's companies) in the amount of the the first and second mortgage plus "rent" for using my credit. No mortgage would show on his credit score which freed him up to borrow more money. He had the right in the lease to purchase the property back from me at the price I paid for it so he got the appreciation of the property. He made the downpyament (that was supposed to be my protection) when the house was purchased. Google "Capital Lease" to learn more.
Problem is, the downpayment is a function of the price of the home. If you don't have a correct appraisal and/or the value goes down and you borrow more than 100% of the value due to over competitive mortgage industry, you walk and the owner is left holding the bag. The mistake I made was not verifying what the house is worth and trusting Ockham folks that this was a legit guy. The house was purchased in the Summer of 2006. Not to mention, you pay contractors who remodel/improve a house that you don't own. You walk without paying them and they slap liens on the property to get the money that is rightfully theirs, makes it difficult to sell. The lease states he does not have the right to improve the property unless I grant him the right, which I never did. He represented to these contractors that it was his house, which it isn't.
He also borrowed from a hard money program that Ockham had which is now bankrupt and many people there have lost all their money in that fund. I don't know where the culpability is, all I know is that all these people are too close and I smell a rat. Every one one of these individuals are claiming "victimization" yet their activities seem all too similar. These are smart people, and I THINK contingencies were in place to protect themselves while good people like the ones on here are left holding over appraised houses with mortgages they can't afford. I don't mind if they foreclose and my credit is ruined (I am past that now), I am just irked that I could be so mis-lead by people I thought were friends. Again, I don't know Wade never met the guy.
12/12/2007 06:55 AM by PoorSap
Someone should contact Bill Gephardt. I'd love to see him run a story on all of this. gephardt@kutv2.com
12/12/2007 09:12 AM by
For the guy that told people to stop faking to be former AMG Employees, I was a Sales Manager of an office and trained and recruited for AMG. I still have the training DVD's and my copy of "the one minute manager"
Here's the deal, I remember Wade explaining how he bought everything on credit because cars wouldn't depreciate and he could write off the cars as a business expense and blah blah blah.
If you think he has real assets to liquidate you are wrong, he probably has a few watches and other things to sell but as we know he didn't have the title on his home, cars were leased, so what assets does he have to liquidate? I'm sooooo glad I got out when I did.
12/12/2007 09:15 AM by Liquidating Assets?
Besides the rapid price appreciation in the area, and the number of quick transactions at higher and higher prices, what reasons do you have to believe that the value of the home was over estimated? I have been assuming that it was and that the capital lease was a part of the justification for the home's inflated value. I read about capital leases and now understand the difference between that and an operating lease.
I've been assuming that several of the parties involved were probably inflating the value of homes within the market by acting in concert to purchase and resell home using the hard money funds they had setup. I was assuming that they were then making transaction fees, stripping value from the homes as the sales occured, and then viewing their returns as having created real economic value.
What mechanism do you think they were using to inflate home's values. Also, as an FYI, what % downpayment was used to protect the person lending his credit and how much "rent" as % of the total mortgage payments (1st and 2nd) did you receive?
12/12/2007 09:16 AM by Unwinding the web
To PoorSap: Just a question, when they used your credit to purchase this home, did YOU actually wire funds for the down payment?? Most of these deals that went down had the down payment come from somebody else....usually the SELLER of the property if they were part of the group. If not, it came from a third party.
If you actually wired your own funds for the down payment, then I apologize for suggesting it, but many other deals involved wires from people other than the buyer.
So I don't feel that bad for some of the people who invested in the deal. There should have been plenty of RED FLAGS before anything ever moved forward.
12/12/2007 09:26 AM by Bill
Last post for a while, I have to work and my kid is in a Christmas program this morning. I am still trying to keep my life together.
Inflated values - understand this is a suspicion of mine. What leads me to believe? Well, the mortgage is for $1.1MM. I understand (not verified totally) that almost $200,000 of improvements to the house have been done since he moved in. I know there is a new pool, new garage and fence, I believe he did more besides that to the inside of the house. I hear about a theater, etc. I had it appraised BY A LEGITIMATE BANK a few weeks ago and it came in at $1.05MM. You do the math. I know the market has gone down, but if the house was worth $1.2MM at time of purchase and $200,000 of improvemnts have gone in, I can't believe it has dropped that much. I may be wrong, but the appraiser told me it hasn't. I conclude bad appraisal at time of purchase.
To make one more point. When I informed Wade what the Bank's appraisal came in at, he simply told me he had his own appraisers that would value it higher. Tell me the ethics of that statement alone.
I understand banks are conservative on these appraisals, but they are also realistic.
12/12/2007 09:30 AM by PoorSap
Bill,
My funds were not used for the down payments. The funds were from the Capital Lessees. That was supposed to be my protection. They would wire me and I would make the down payment with their funds. I don't know where they got the money, but the more I am learning I am realizing they never used their own money for anything. I am not sure where their money is now, but I know these people are smart. They have contingencies. They will be fine and Saps like me are screwed.
12/12/2007 09:33 AM by PoorSap
Were the values inflated? My Opinion:
I have seen some of the homes that eventually wound up in this System languish on the market, usually "For Sale By Owner", and they wouldn't get any offers anywhere near their asking price. Suddenly one of these System buyers comes in and not only meets, but often exceeds the asking price even though the market dictated for the previous 6 months or longer that the home had no such value -- they key to it's purchase price was not the property's value but the percieved value of the "side deals" being arranged as part of the transaction. Another transaction I saw more than once was a System person buying a home in an arms length transaction, then promptly reselling it to someone else, this time someone within the System (lower in the pecking order) for much more money along with a bunch of strings attached like a portion of the return earned on the excess price, rent or lease money paid to the newer buyer, etc. This tricked the lender into thinking that somebody actually valued the property at the new purchase price when really they valued the property PLUS the side deals at the new purchase price. These transactions seldom met basic rules of "arms length transactions" -- this doesn't in itself make them illegal, but it does create a purchase prices that cannot be viewed as a market value of the property and it does go against standard mortgage contracts and was often actively obscured from the mortgage company. To tie in a previos thread it was the equivalent of consumers cooking the books to manipulate the lenders just as Enron cooked their books to manipulate their stock price. Some will say that the Enron buyers got what they deserved for buying the stock without figuring out the fraud, but in the end it is the perpetrator of the fraud who should be vilified. Same thing here, the banks should have been more diligent and figured out the fraud, but the fraud itself is still where the guilt should be laid (lie?). Also, I can't see this happening without a shady mortgage broker in between the dishonest buyer/seller and the actual lender.
12/12/2007 09:44 AM by
This is the reason Franklin Squires will pay cash for a home first at a lower value. They will then sell a home to a private party at a higher value in a neighborhood to establish a comp. They can then use that property for the comps on the others, this is why all of the group moved into one nieghborhood. Of course that neighborhood had high end homes but the homes they purchased did not have the size, were not as well built as others etc.
You can read the article on the Brad Kitchen, Ron Clarke, Cloward, riverbottoms equity scheme indictment in the Herald today to see how this all works.
12/12/2007 09:45 AM by for unwinding the web
PoorSap,
I hate to say this, you committed loan fraud. You need to be in contact with the state before they contact you, and they will be in contact with you. They already know who you are.
12/12/2007 09:46 AM by David Doerr
David,
Thanks for the information I already know. I was led to believe this was legit and I am not a dishonest person. I do not appreciate you accusing me of being that way. If I were hiding, do you think I would be here now? I have never misrepresented myself in any way shape or form. I wish I would have seen your post in May when it originally was put here, but I didn't. I know ignorance is no defense, I am trying to do what's right.
12/12/2007 09:52 AM by PoorSap
P.S. How do I contact them and what do you suggest I do. I can email you privately if you would like to give me some advice.
12/12/2007 09:53 AM by PoorSap
PoorSap,
I am not trying to be acusitory, just trying to point you in the right direction, so you can get out from under this mess. Please email me at the link above, and I can get you the contact info you need. I just know it will be better is you in the long run to come forward and help in the investgation that is already ongoing than to wait.
12/12/2007 10:05 AM by David Doerr
It's easy to be decieved by someone you trust who has a great deal of resources at their disposal and the momentum of temporary market imbalance behind them. It's hard to accept what has happened with dignity and move forward in a measured and reasonable fashion to resolve the situation as best possible, stop the fraud and expose the guilty in spite of being embarrassed. I think PS is more of a solution to what's happening than anybody, including the regulators who we pay to flush this stuff out who in the past have seen this happening and seem unable to put a spotlight on the problem an unwilling to shut unscrupulous individuals down until so many have been ruined -- they are unwilling to say anything until they have a case and they wont have a case until they start to say something. As usual, the market is sorting it out but not before a lot of people got hurt.
12/12/2007 10:15 AM by
Can you tell us if the Atlas people are being investigated by the Division or the District Attorney and or both? Is it okay to name names on this site without getting into trouble by doing so? Is the investigation trying to link ALL of the equity skimming scams from the atlas people together? Any information you can shed would help us provide additional information for this forum. Also to poor sap - you might contact your lender and explain the situation and ask them for the possibility of a short sale, depending on the lender and the knowledge they have of this area and the number of homes that will be in this situation, chances are they will not want this home to go into forclosure.
12/12/2007 10:58 AM by question for David Doerr
Thanks for the advice to talking to mortgage companies. I have been trying desperately to contact them on this property and the others that I am high and dry on. This is not the only one. Trying to reach them is like pissing in an 80 MPH wind. I want them to take it now and do what they can. We have contracts on 2 properties, banks won't call us back after numerous calls to them to do a short sale. If they don't want to contact us back I am inclined to let them eat it, market it themselves and get less for it. My credit is already in shambles, but I don't need credit anyway. I am on the Dave Ramsey plan now. Ramsey says a badge of honor is a credit score of 0, means you don't borrow at all. This fiasco is getting me from 750+ right there quicker than I thought!
12/12/2007 11:10 AM by PoorSap
WHO TO CONTACT:
Here are the email addresses of the dudes at the State Division of Securities (part of the State of Utah Department of Commerce) who appear to be investigating SIMILAR transactions and entities. That is not to say that they are currently looking at anybody listed here -- I have no idea. If you want to file a complaint or just contribute info that you are aware of with the Division of Securities they are eager to hear from you. They want to clean things up but require information that they seem unable to get unless it comes from live people.
Mike Hinses: m.hinses@utah.gov
Wayne Klein: w.klein@utah.gov
You can also get additional info about the Division at: www.Securities.Utah.Gov
Or you can call them at: 801-530-6600
Criminal Charges were filed agains one Paul Bouchard and Hunters Capital on or around December 4th for his involvement in a "real estate scheme" which is reminiscent of some folks expereinces as outlined on this board. Here are the actual charges from the Division of Securities web site:
http://www.securities.utah.gov/press/bouchard.pdf
This link was posted previously on this board but I think that in light of all the speculation that has taken place since it was posted we would do well to re-establish that there are actual facts coming out and they are being pursued only because intersted citizens are pushing them through the system and providing the truth to the investigators. Without that participation this would fade away. This thing goes a lot deeper than the one guy charged so far, we all know that, I encourage everybody with a story to tell, whether it's your own or your friends' or your family's, please contact the Division of Securities, give them your story, answer their questions and let's hope that they can sort it all out! Let us know what you find out and we'll help get to the bottom of this.
12/12/2007 11:27 AM by
Wow! It seemed simple at the beginning! Now not so much. There have apparently been a lot of people burned by this situation. Thank you, David, for bringing this to the attention of your community and ours.
12/12/2007 11:27 AM by Sarah Eubanks ~ Preferred Oregon Loan Consultant & Notary Public
I am still wondering if anyone can tell me how Rex, Garrett and Wade met each other, how long they have known each other, etc. Garrett's website referring to 100 properties, was done through the Ockham model I believe. So if this is fraud as Doerr thinks, he may not be as clean as you think. I am seeing a lot of these folks work in the same way to protect themselves and as I stated earlier I am smelling a rat. I am not sure of anything, but if I am to get to the bottom of this, I need someone to contact me who knows these people and their interpersonal relationships. Rex's picture (and others I don't know) are all over Garrett's site in meetings, trips, etc. There is more than a business relationship. They are all running and I need to know what they have done to protect themselves. I don't know it Utah has the same insurance laws as some states do, but cash value in life insurance is not an attachable asset in a lot of states. I would love to see how much paid up life insurance these guys have if it is unattachable in Utah.
12/12/2007 11:49 AM by PoorSap
Poor Sap you say sleater pulled all the equity out of the houses how did he do that with you on title? Did you refi and give him the money? If not who did you buy the home from because they would have had to cut him a check or something(which would be illegal as well) any input?
by the way, I've known mr "swift" as referenced above for a number of years now ( this isn't his correct name either but we'll leave it at that) I know he has multiple properties in his name that mr sleater has purchased in the capital lease which he would be responsible for the mortgages but when he told mr swift "hey im not making your interest payment anymore, you don't have a job anymore, and Im not paying your 20k in mortgages on the homes i used your credit to buy" what other choice does one have but to leave the property you are renting...(or capital leasing/or whatever) due to poor choices people are in situations without any income and huge mortgages now and will probably ruin their credit for good.as far as the other guys who have moved out i don't know that they moved in the middle of the night as i know mr "swift" helped mr nielson move on a saturday morning. that guy either wasn't too smart or was WAY TOO trusting to his good old buddy mr sleater, my guess is both! From what "swift" has told me and others who knew nielson he dropped out of medical school to come work for his best buddy sleater, and bought into sleaters crap just like hundreds of people and sleater took advantage of how personable and trusting this kid was so he put him in charge of dealing with the investors since we all know sleaters personality is that of a used car salesman. "hey quit medical school and come help me run my ponzi scheme, i mean my fake businesses, i mean my successful businesses." Mr. "swift" said nelson moved because he went 3 months without pay and even loaned sleater like 30-40 grand right before everything crumbled. he found out sleater was doing stuff with money he shouldn't so he resigned and handed sleater the keys to the house he was leasing from sleater (sounds like the one house he ownes in his credit) and sleater was so bitter that he wasn't making the payment anymore that he didn't even help him move."hey im not going to pay you anything for a few months, and can i have a loan I'll pay you back i promise, oh and by the way can i get rent this month?" wow friends and family watch out let alone investors who don't even know him. moral of the story to everyone involved with this guy stay in school and if it looks like a snake, sounds like a snake, bites like a snake...its an honest lds businesman with a great opportunity? i mean its a snake
12/12/2007 11:49 AM by how does it work
How does it work...
The equity question is a good one. I don't know they did not refi. Did they over appraise to get a larger loan than they needed to finsish construction? Maybe. All I know is that I am holding a mortgage for $1.1M and a realistic appraisal of $1.05M. That is after the supposed $200,000 of improvements on the home since it was bought. The loan was for $1.1M and the downpayment was $100,000 so the assumed appraised value of the house before improvements was $1.2M. I just don't think the market could have gone down that much. When I got the appraisal of $1.05M Sleater told me to use Appraiser X to get a higher value because he was familiar with the neighborhood and the appraiser I used wasn't. I read that to mean, this guy will give you an overinflated value on the house and you can sell it to the next guy and leave him high and dry. I am sorry, but I don't work that way. Nielsen used to talk to me and really seemed like he wanted to make things right in November. I am sorry Sleater did what he did to him, but seems par for the course. I love that his defenders are now quiet since we are sharing FACTS about him and his practices.
12/12/2007 12:08 PM by PoorSap
just to clarify the above name mentions Kevin Swift is actually Kevin Swiss.
12/12/2007 12:15 PM by random
PoorSap. Something fundamental is missing from your description and I'm sure it's a simple oversight, I still don't see how Sleater(?) benefited from your purchasing the house, . Unless he was the one who you bought it from? Maybe he bought it for $750,000 then promptly sold it to you for the $1.2M you mention above (1.1M in debt + .1M in down payment)? That would get him some cash to "invest". Otherwise, I'm still not seeing where those who put this together and got you to do it get their $.
12/12/2007 12:17 PM by
I would vebture a guess that there was a 'notice of interest' paid to an LLC at the closing. All you have to do is look at the settlement statement to see where the money was going.
12/12/2007 12:42 PM by David Doerr
Lori Prichard reporting
A federal indictment unsealed Tuesday charges six Utahns with wire and mail fraud. Prosecutors say it's a mortgage scheme that reaches into the millions. It's the kind of fraud that affects everyone by driving up property values and property taxes.
Federal prosecutors say this scheme involved the sale and resale of upscale homes, five of which are in the Provo River Bottoms area. This may be the first federal indictment by the Utah Task Force, but it made a pledge this will not be the last.
U.S. Attorney Brett Tolman said, "At this point, we have nearly a dozen investigations we are working on."
And so began the announcement against the first six who are targets of the state's mortgage fraud task force. Federal prosecutors point to Bradley Kitchen as one of the ringleaders.
The other alleged ringleader is Dr. David Bolick. A well-published medical doctor, Bolick is chief medical director of Grant Life Sciences in Sandy, where he specializes in cervical cancer detection.
Barbara Bearnson, criminal chief in the U.S. Attorney's office, said, "The agreement began here between Mr. Kitchen and Mr. Bolick. From there they developed the scheme and recruited straw purchasers."
In the indictment, prosecutors allege four others --Steve Cloward, Ron Clarke, Jeffery Garrett and Rebecca Hadlock-- all had a hand in the scheme to "...defraud and to obtain money and property by means of false and fraudulent pretenses."
Brett Tolman said, "The potential maximum penalty for each count in this indictment is up to 20 years in federal prison."
We tried calling all of the defendants named in the case; only one, Dr. Bolick would comment. He told us he was shocked and surprised by the indictment. He also said he just found out Tuesday about the charges and didn't even know what he was charged with. Bolick also said he was not guilty of anything.
"We are erring on the side of aggressive, and we are continuing to work very hard," Toman said.
Others working just as hard on this include the IRS, the FBI and a host of other state agencies.
Greg Bretzing, with the FBI, said, "There's many cases we're investigating. We're trying to get to the root of the problem."
Federal prosecutors say as part of this indictment they will try to regain some of the millions of dollars lost by this mortgage scheme. The defendants are expected to be in federal court early next month.
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12/12/2007 12:45 PM by thanks to above for the ksl link it is here in it's entirety
I have been assuming that one of Wade's companies or a related party owned the house/lot before Poorsap bought it and thus he benefitted from the inflated valuation. Or possibly Wade had setup the transaction so that he/his companies got a fee for arranging the transaction or a refund or something. If not the only upside I see for Wade is that he gets to live in a $1MM house while the risk of default stays with Poorsap. I doubt the latter possibility is actually true. Too much complicated stuff seems to be flying around for it to be explained simply as a shifting of risk.
12/12/2007 01:08 PM by Unwinding the web
Looking at Weston W. Sleaters title now...... Kyle Nelsons old house. 1432 E. Lancaster Orem UT. 1st mortgage 960,000 2nd mortgage 240,000. The 2nd mortgage is the cash in the pocket. A lot of transactions that happen with these types of deals have double contracts, simultaneouse closings, Huds not on the table, etc. Not to say that anyone knows exactly how this home or this deal was put together. This particular deal could have been perfectly legal (bull *&$%*) The $240,000 at 2-3% pays the option arm payment, defrauds the lender and that is why the deals are done in the first place. The first 50-80k are skimmed and pocketed as transaction fees. That is why the followers of Sleater owned more than one home, they took transaction fees!! So they are not innocent at all, are they?
12/12/2007 01:33 PM by Not rocket science
May I suggest everyone use headings for their posts? One that says FACTS- no hearsay and another heading that says HEARSAY for personal stories and things you've heard? This blog just gets so off track sometimes it needs some organization.
12/12/2007 01:34 PM by dave m
FACT:
Probably not.
12/12/2007 01:45 PM by
QUESTION:
To "Not Rocket Science". How did you find that Title info? Is there a web site that provides that kind of info or is a professional database for realtors or something?
12/12/2007 01:57 PM by
Not rocket science.
The explanation you gave doesn't necessarily sync up with what poorsap has said. Given that poorsap is the name on the title of the home in Canyon Cove in which Wade resided, he should have at least some idea how Wade monetized this specific transaction. Given that Wade is not on the title, the proceeds from the second mortgage on that property would not have gone to Wade unless he collected a fee for something from poorsap. So the question is still how are they inflating the value of the homes and then monetizing the inflated value?
I have several theories, but poorsap indciated that one of those did not apply to his specific transaction. Does anyone have details of a specific transaction where Wade used someone else's credit to create value for himself/his companies outside of simply shifting risk of default to the actual borrower?
12/12/2007 01:58 PM by Unwinding the web
FACT - definitely so. Try me....
To the question above how did Wade benefit. I have never stated for sure that he got money out of the deal. My presumption is that he did due to appraisals, etc. after he walked on me. At the very least, he frees up his credit with no mortgage to go borrow more money from other people since it doesn't show up on his credit.
12/12/2007 02:01 PM by PoorSap
Take a look at your HUD - what was the sales price? You have a first mortgage of 880,000 and a second mortgage of 220,000. Throw it out here and let us know what you paid the original seller "reflex developement" or New Line as they are also called. I have often wondered if Re-flex is hooked up in this mess as they sold many homes at the same time to several of these guys. To the guy above - this is public records, anyone can search county records. I could throw poor saps name out now and the address of the property but it wouldn't benefit this discussion. The above property is the one that Sleater owned and leased to Nelson. This property is the one that poor sap owned and leased to Sleater. You can look at the title to a dozen houses in Canyon Cove Estates and see names on the title of people that did these lease crap deals. Same thing in the River Bottoms and look who may be in jail down the road for it. Ron Clarke, Brad Kitchen and company.
12/12/2007 02:14 PM by for poor sap
QUESTION:
PoorSap,
Who owned the house the day before you bought it? In other words, from whom did you purchase the house? It's probably on the HUD documents you received at closing.
Is it possible that the house was purchased by your tormentors (maybe in the name of one of them, maybe in the name of one of their entities) for $960,000. Then they recruited you to buy it from them for $1,200,000 because they had some friend appraise the property and it happened to come out far more valuable than they paid for it (imagine that). At closing they had you take out two loans (apparently), the first mortgage paid off their old mortgage, your second mortgage of $240,000 went into their pockets so they could be rich and cool and stuff. Is it possible that you may not have known it but they built in a $240,000 profit for themselves based on a fraudulent appraisal and your willingness to buy the house at that price validated the valuation to the bankers? Problem would be that you were not entering into an arms lenght transaction, there were side deals and less than independent appraisals and mortgage brokers who were in on the deal but didn't tell you about it and title company the same. Maybe?
12/12/2007 02:17 PM by
THEORY/QUESTION - Poorsap
I've been assuming that the folks purchasing all of these assets using other people's credit were getting money from the transactions. Otherwise, they would have little need to dramatically inflate the value of the property. If you are willing to loan your credit and they are willing to pay you a premium to use it, and they used this sort of transaction for more residences than they could live in - then they had to be getting $ out of the deal somehow. I can't imagine that they were simply using your credit so that they could fund lavish lifestyles or even so that they would have clear credit to qualify for more speculative deals where they were hoping to profit from price apprecitation. If they were using it that way, it was simply reckless and risky and probably illegal.
But when you combine your transaction, with the 3-4% month funds and the deal flow they were creating on other transactions like yours, you have to smeall a much larger scheme than simply trying to get more leverage than that for which they alone could qualify.
It seems to me that they were more likely purchasing assets at market value and then using some mechanism to inflate the value and then another mechanism to monetize it. You were probably used to help them monetize the inflated value. From whom did you buy the property? Were there any disbursements from the loan proceeds to abnormal parties - ie, besides the mortgage broker, realtor, title insurance co., or owner.
Given the number of improvements you say were made to the property, I have to assume that Wade was intending to remain it. So he probably only skipped out on the payment as the house of cards came tumbling down. That's why I think reconstructing the house of cards can help people see who knew what and why each party was actually involved.
12/12/2007 02:30 PM by Unwinding the web
I am done answering questions. I have answered about all I can do. I will finish with your supposition Unwinding.
The Ockham Group has a model. It is called Become a Revolutionary Landlord. Sell your residence and Capital Lease it back with the option to purchase. You get all the appreciation and deductions for interest as if it is your own since it is occupied by you according to the Ockham model. Take your equity out of the residence that you just sold (ligitimate or inflated) and put the cash in the hardmoney lending program Ockham that pays 24% per year. In fact put as much cash as you have in it. By the way that hard money program went defunct in October. I think it is similar to the one mentioned above that is being investigating but I am not sure of that. Lend your credit out as much as you can to generate as much monthly income as your DTI will allow.
Lease other properties from other landlords and use them as rental properties i.e. not your personal residence. You get all the tax benefits from a rental property (depreciation, etc.). If it negative cash flows, most of them do, then use the income form hard money, landlord properties to offset the negative cash flow from your rentals. The rentals I am referring to are similar to the 100s of properties Gunderson has acquired. He owns none of them he has Capital Leased them and is in turn renting them to renters. His credit has not been used to purchase them, some other landlord's credit is used. That landlord receives monthly income for loaning his credit to Gunderson, Gunderson gets to rent it out and get the appreciation on it since the capital lease allows him to repurchase the property from the landllord. It is a mess, I understand it very well, I am just trying to get answers myself on the personal relationships with Sleater, Wheeler, Gunderson et. al.
12/12/2007 02:46 PM by PoorSap
Poorsap
Thanks for the honest answers. You have contributed substantially to the discussion. I know one of Wade's former Source XII big wigs fairly well. We play golf regularly. I'll see what information I can get on the personal relationships for you. I'll be in touch when/if i discover anything.
12/12/2007 02:59 PM by Unwinding the web
Jerem Eyre or Osorno LLC, New Castle Holddings LLC, Hill Erickson LLC, Lightsource LLC? Anyone heard of these and are they associated with the latest scams? (I am not alluding to or stating that Jerem Eyre, stated LLCs or any other LLCs Mr. Erye may be affiliated with has done anything wrong, or that he is associated with the current indictment talked about on this board. I am just looking for information or others who have been caught up in similar scams.) I know his LLCs and recruiting style is a lower level product of Franklin Squires/Free Capitalists and their sham companies. I have family and friends who have been sucked into borrowing against their credit and getting 125% or more loans on vehicles, boats and multiple mortgages on their homes all to get 3%-4% back. They are brainwashed with capitalism vs. socialism / producer vs. consumer and a full helping of the doctrines of man mingled with scripture principles to back it all up. I am very worried and have tried to help them see this can't continue and that they are being dishonest with their fellow man. They are actually recruiting heavily to keep things going. Paying for classes on real-estate? I could take $5,000.00 and invest it right now and get a better, longer return without challenging "Grey" area laws or alienating my family. And no, it wouldn't be with a crooked 401k that aids porn like they say. The best part is I wouldn't be showing off my fake wealth from borrowed money. I would be living within my means and have a clean conscious.
Is there help or a support group for this type of scam? An intervention, where someone can combat the brainwashing producer/insider crap they spew? Whatever happened to a real product, working hard and saving? The grey area these scammers are taking advantage of is pretty amazing since they teach principles that they purport to be black and white. I don't remember the parable of the Talents talking about taking advantage of the system and skimming the credit of others to get monetary gain. I believe it had to do with personal growth, no matter your financial status. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." It certainly wasn't to be taken that we go out and borrow what we can, call it liability instead of debt, (same thing) and then gain our interest from working others and the economic system. It is blasphemy to say God is a capitalist. He works with people and not economies. People are the ones who screw economies up with greed and selfishness.
Thanks for your time and possible information.
12/12/2007 03:13 PM by FraudFinder
FraudFinder -- Your post is a testament to many of the principles taught by Rick.
Your statement about the parable of the talends supports the principle perspective determines action and also force destroys freedom and prosperity.
Your statement "[God] works with people and not economies" supports Rick's principle which states people are assets, things are liabilities.
12/12/2007 04:29 PM by meemoe
PoorSap, thanks for your participation, you have gone beyond the call of duty, I wish some others with first hand experiences had stepped up to add something but apparently they're too fearful or they still think they're getting out of this with their principal and interest if they just give their sponsors time. In fact I suspect they are just giving time to the perps to consolidate their remaining assets and stash them away for themselves and/or their families. Good luck man!
12/12/2007 04:43 PM by
anyone that's a financial victim of wade slaeter should contact lt. jeff robinson of the utah county attorney's office at 801-851-8028.
12/12/2007 06:53 PM by
meemoe,
I was hoping to hear less about broad principles from Rick and more about the specific transaction structures. Can you tell me how a capital lease actually creates value not found in home ownership? Obviously it increases your ability to find additional levergae if someone else takes on the primary default risk. But what other value does it create?
Also, how do the hard money funds earn such a high rate of return? What are examples of the transactions in which they particpate?
My assumption was that the hard money funds are most frequently used to purchase assets at actual market value and then hold those assets while a capital lease is created and a willing investor is found. The capital lease then creates the appearance of a higher value based on assumed cash flows that can be used to justify the home's sale at a higher price. When the sale occurs to the unknowing investor (like poorsap) the numbers look good. He has a decent cash flow, and the appraisals come in high (inflated either by the cashflow, or a series of comps built using non-arms-length transactions, or purely fradulent comps) so he assumes he has a higher equity stake. The hard money fund then recoups a handsome profit based on the difference between the previous fair market value of the home and the price the investor paid. The profits are then returned to the fund and a distribution is made to fund holders so they can keep up with the capital lease. The investor feels happy as long as the capital lease payments are made because he didn't have to put any money into the transaction and he is basically making a pretty penny on his credit. The investor might even be enticed by an upfront cash payment from the lessee that he can invest in one of the hard money funds. The lessee is happy becuase he can continue to live in a nice place, while having all of his equity working for him in the fund. Does this sound like the typical transaction structure of these deals?
Does anyone else see it the same way? Does anyone know the specifics of transactions that made money for these hard money funds?
12/12/2007 07:01 PM by Unwinding the web
After reading what meemoe stated I would have to agree that interventions are going to be necessary for some of the "Brainwashed" who can only point back to RK as the one and only. Sad thing is, you can get free and better advice from several sources. They just have to work. Create a legit business or maybe even a JOB........
Can you say 12 step program?
It is sad really...
Weren't ponzi schemes and over extended credit precursers that started the great depression?
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/realty-qa-now-wrong-time/story.aspx?guid=%7B73D52B6A-0353-4C36-A2E7-0DA4D0EEDEB6%7D
"And for what it's worth, even if the scheme you describe is legit, I wouldn't pay a plugged nickel to attend any kind of real estate seminar. If a real estate investor needs partners with money and/aregood credit scores, he should welcome any and all comers with open arms, not charge a two grand [(acutally 5k or more per event)] entry fee."
12/12/2007 07:16 PM by
Hard Money Lenders . . . I Think
Hard Money Lenders generally just loan people and companies money, just like a bank would, but often when a bank won't do it or when the borrower is not interested in dealing with the bank for whatever reason. People go to Hard Money Lenders when they don't want to or cannot qualify, for a bank loan but have signficant collateral, usually for a real estate project recently but it can be for anything. Another reason a person would go to a Hard Money Lender instead of a bank is that they need the money immediately and don't have time to wait for a bank to qualify them for the loan and underwrite it. The Hard Money Lender will require collateral, usually in excess of the loan, and they will charge signficant points upon loaning the money (often 2% to 8% built into the repayment of the loan) and they will charge higher than market interest rates (recently I've seen ranges from .75% per month to several percent per month depending on the risk and collateral and urgency) and they will usually require their money back in 3 to 12 months or they begin foreclosure on the collateral unless other arrangements are made. I've seen loans structured for 6 months then at the end of the 6 months they roll into another loan with Points charged all over again and high interest rates. They often do not charge monthly payments, but instead write into the loan agreement that at the end of the specified term the entire loan is due, principal, interest, points, everything at once.
Example: For the past few years a very attractive investment for some has been to purchase a parcel of land and develop it. The land may be a single house on a single large lot that is big enough to subdivide, put in a road and utilities, then sell off several lots plus the original house. But it is expensive to buy and expensive to develop and sometimes very time sensitive as you are acruing interest every month that you hold the project. Banks will make such loans but with very strict equity ratios and income ratios and stuff like that. So instead of going to the bank the investor will approach a Hard Money Lender who will loan them the cash to purchase the land as well as the cash to improve the lots, but at a steep cost and usually the land is . Many investors cannot do a project without such lenders.
Example: An investor wants to purchase an apartment complex but has to close the deal within a month and knows that won't be possible at a bank due to less than stellar credit. He goes to a Hard Money Lender and takes out the loan using the complex as collateral with the belief that once he purchases the comples using the HML he can then turn his attention to getting a long term loan and get out of the HML within a few months. Expensive proposition but maybe not as expensive as losing the deal.
Example: A home builder is a month from completion on a new house but has run out of money and still needs to buy appliances but has maxed out his line of credit at the bank. He may go to a HML and get the money to complete the project on a 6 month loan with something valuable as collateral then pray the place sells before the money comes due.
12/12/2007 07:53 PM by
There are many many ways to make this scheme work, but does it really matter? They used one, or used them all, but The bottom is:
FACT #1: The values were over-inflated. The property over-secured. The builder/seller/whomever got the real value out, then the "New" buyer (like poor sap and numerous others) financed the true value + 500k give or take a few.
FACT #2: The scammers take the 500k (or whatever) and give some to the recruites, some to the company, and some to the "new" buyer, who they convince to "re-invest" the same with them at 3-5% per month.
FACT #3: the new buyers gets paid as long as the chain keeps going. The profits only come from new deals of similar fraudulent nature. There is no producing. Nothing new of value created.
FACT #4: The buyer is involved in loan fraud. They can claim pure victim, but they signed the loan application over-stating their income and occupancy intention as well as the HUDs stating they put money down, which never happened.
FACT #5: Sleater may be the biggest, but there are dozens of others. I cannot count the number of times a cocky, self-righteous punk preached to me about these programs, and ridiculed anyone not on the bandwagon as stupid shortsighted people. Yes they (mis)quote LDS leaders. But listen to ANY LDS general conference. Mortgages are brought up often, and EVERY SINGLE time the advice is to NEVER get into any debt except a modest mortgage on a modest home and then pay if off as soon as possible.
FACT #6: There's a slew of indictments going down to keep atlas company. Canyon cove yesterday, Riverbottoms and brad kitchen today. Alpine and other fiascos right around the corner.
*okay - one small disclaimer, I suppose a "buyer" could have actually bought a home, been completely conned, and his application was fully truthful - but I've never seen it (and I've seen many), and I find it impossible. Reason? You cannot qualify for that type of home if you claimed it for what it was - an investment property - without a hefty down payment of YOUR OWN money, or some serious income to document. Stated income loans were too easy to get, and for whatever reason "buyers" beleived the loan dude who told them it doesn't matter if you sign a legal document claiming you make $800,000 per year when you really make 80. Then they beleived it was okay to claim putting down their own money when they were not.
Poor sap - thanks for your comments. At least you admit fault in the matter. Unfortunately, there is no pot at the end of the rainbow. Any monies (as if there were any) will go to the REAL victims, the lenders who beleived the applicants and appraisers. I do feel for you, just as I feel for the dozens of other poor saps who called me crazy for trying to talk them out of this for the past 2 years. They, too, are good people, but greed outweighed their common sense. Just be glad there are bigger fish to fry, like sleater, otherwise the target would be the fraudulent applications. (again - not saying yours was, or that you weren't convinced it was okay - but the other 99% were)
Good luck. Life goes on. It seems you have a foundational knowledge of what is truly important in life, you just need to hang on to that and ride it out. There are worse things than losing money, and you're still better off than 90% of the world. Best wishes to you and your family.
12/12/2007 08:17 PM by Joe Friday, giving JUST THE FACTS
I think there were several schemes at play here - some dealing with using the unblemished credit scores of the victims, others with overpriced housing, and still others are some good old-fashioned ponzi schemes. However, without inside knowledge of the specific accounting practices and inner-workings of the Sleazer [sic] business model, I'm not sure the level of detail we are asking for of the sales pitch is value-added. It almost seems like we are trying to make sense of a business model we know is a complete scam. For people like my mom, the actual machination of the deal means absolutely nothing - she invested based on her trust of others who were unwittingly involved in the scam.
I can't stress this enough - we need victims as well as insiders to come forward and share what they know, or, at the very least, let us know if they have filed complaints with the Utah Division of Securities, the Utah County Attorney's Office, the FBI, and/or the media to encourage other victims to do the same.
My suggestion to those who have asked about support groups is to forward this blog link to known victims - there is a lot of good info here.
David - perhaps you could help moderate by periodically inserting the correct name and number for the appropriate agency to lodge a complaint with for any victims who are just happening upon the blog? I really appreciate you opening this discussion - it would have been several more months of fruitless waiting had you not brought people together to discuss this.
12/12/2007 08:25 PM by concerned family member
Nicely put Joe Friday. Sounds like you've got a handle on this and what really went down. I hope you are correct about the indictments as @#$% like this should have serious consequences.
I've heard a little from friends in Alpine that some high-end houses were being put into this kind of scam, I think one friend is caught up in it but won't admit it yet, any details on that operation up North?
12/12/2007 08:37 PM by
To Joe Friday -
My mom took out a home equity loan on her own house to 'invest'.
Should she have known the deal sounded too good to be true? Probably.
Was she aware of any inflated appraisals (in this case, any inflation on the home's value appear to have been 5% at most - if that was even the intention)? No way.
Could we please try to avoid placing blame/guilt on the victims under false assumptions? I don't want to discourage any victims from coming forward to help prevent this financial devestation from happening to others in the future.
12/12/2007 08:43 PM by concerned family member
Victim, Perpetrator, it's all so fuzzy. I'm sure your mom was, and remains, completely innocent of any misdeeds. But by the same token I think that comments like Joe Friday's are invaluable and I'd hate to think of leaving them unsaid for fear of offending someone. Let's just assume that time will tell on the guilt thing and let the details fly at will. Like JF said above, there are all kinds of ways these scams were perpetrated . . . some investors knew it all, some knew nothing, some had a good idea but decided the risk was worth it, I don't think anybody is lumping all investors into one such group.
12/12/2007 08:51 PM by
A few things:
Unwinding - you have some of it correct some is not. It is too involved to type here. If you want information maybe we can speak by phone so you can ask me questions. Let me know how we can connect if you are interested.
Joe Friday (love the name) - pretty much spot on, one thing in my case. I have a very high annual income (not bragging, just facts) from a REAL job. So income in my case was never misstated. I always thought the whole downpayment thing was a bit fishy representing it to the title company as my own money. I was told by Wheeler and the Ockham attorneys that this is ok all the lender cares is that there is money down nothing else. I am not looking for a pot at the end of a rainbow, I am not that naive any more. I am just trying to learn how I could have been so stupid and put myself more importantly my wife and kids in this predicament.
Concerned - couldn't agree more. If some investigator wants to contact me, they know where to find me. I am not hiding from anyone obviously.
One last point to the Ockham model. They also recommended to state on my tax returns that I (or my wife) was a real estate professional for more tax benefit. I am not that stupid to lie on my returns so I did not do this. I thank God I didn't follow that one. I wonder how many IRS agents would like to audit those returns where people falsely took deductions as real estate professionals when they weren't. I think the rule is that you have to spend at least 750 hours a year to claim this. I have a very busy career no way I could spend 750 hours doing this and it would never stand up in a formal audit in my opinion. They would say to say your wife was if she is a stay at home mom, you could show she had the time to do it. When all this came out to me earlier this year at tax time, I began to really second guess my decision in doing this whole thing.
12/12/2007 08:54 PM by PoorSap
you mentioned people should contact the utah county attorney's office. i did this today and lt. jeff robinson at the utah county atty's offic hadn't heard of atlas or such. i agree anybody with info or investors need to come foward and let things fall where they may. again that number is 801-851-8028. pass it on thanks!
12/12/2007 09:03 PM by to concerned family member
I respectfully disagree - I think there have been previous posts that do lump victims into a single group of 'perpetrators'.
To be clear, I don't care about offending anyone or protecting my own. My concern is scaring off victims that are unsure whether they may have done anything wrong or not. My point is that everyone should come forward and provide the info they have to ensure the case has the teeth it needs to move forward against the ringleaders of this whole mess.
12/12/2007 09:13 PM by concerned family member
Gee, Dave... Way to go DAVE, you're the man DAVE. Looks like YOU did everything!!
12/12/2007 09:50 PM by Bill
To answer a few questions. This is Garrett Gunderson
There is some speculation, frustration, and misinformation that I would like to at least shed some light on. I am unwilling to answer questions regarding Wade Sleater or Rick Koerber, but am willing to give direct answers about myself.
First, I agree it is a bit ridiculous to have a picture of my boot on the web-site. Just having some fun.
This post will be a little lengthy, but I just wanted to clear a few things up for you.
Let me give some background on how I met Rick Koerber, Wade Sleater, and Rex Wheeler.
Each year I was paying higher taxes and so my accountant referred me to Rex in order to investigate some real estate strategies that could reduce some of that tax burden. Before I met Rex I had around 14 properties that I used my credit and cash to purchase. After learning from Rex, I utilized my parents credit, my grandparents credit, and some other business partners credit to partner on some property. I am in LLC's with these people, therefore it did not require my credit and Rex knew how to acquire the properties without much down payment due to his lending expertise. This is part of what I was talking about on my web-site.
I did not have any money invested with Rex nor did any of my clients. I did not receive any spread on money that was given to him. I did refer people that were looking for real estate to Ockham group which was Rex's organization. Rex is a friend and I even keep in touch with him. He did default on a house that he was leasing from me. That is part of investing. I am happy to at least have real property that I now can work on being productive with. As far as the pictures of him on the web-site. I did go to New York on a trip with Horizon Financial that Rex also qualified for. There was also a picture of our Goal Cultivator community which was 12 people that worked on accountability and brainstorming.
I met Wade Sleater through Les McGuire. Les moved into the building that Wade owned and became a tenant. Wade then became Les's client.
Engenuity, a company Les McGuire, Ray Hooper, Michael Isom and I formed was looking to more officially work together since we were really running three separate organizations under one name. We hired Wade to be the CEO of Engenuity.
I did not recommend any of my clients to put money in Atlas Capital. A few people I knew wanted to put money in Atlas and so I had them sign a form letting them know I was not recommending the investment nor being compensated.
However, I do have an LLC with a few partners where we invested in Markers Holdings LLC with Wade Sleater through a first trust deed. It was to be a short term loan and did promise a high return over a short period of time.
I agree that it is hard to sustain high returns for long periods of time. Smaller companies may have more unrealized potential as they develop a marketplace and may produce higher returns. I never did get involved in raising money for returns that I could not reproduce on my own. Having said that, I believe that when we invest in something that engages our Soul Purpose, 5 percent a month is possible for a period of time.
I met Rick Koerber through Les McGuire. They began doing business together by doing some seminars on principles and real estate. I did not have any involvement in the seminars or business. I did pay to attend the seminar though.
Rick and I started off really rocky. He missed two meetings with me and so I told him not to bother rescheduling, but we eventually formed a friendship through Les. We even started meeting in 2006 to see if there were parts of our business where we could be more intentional and work together. As someone posted our egos were involved, well at least different ideas and direction at time left us with no such merger. After Les died, the remaining partners of Engenuity approached Rick to merge our membership organizations - The Producer Revolution with his membership - The Free Capitalist Project.
The merger happened, but did not last. I am still friends with Rick, but do not have any partnerships with him.
For my background: I did start out as a life insurance salesman. I passed the test when I was 19 and started with the Guardian Life Insurance company. I was taught to say I was a financial planner even though I sold life insurance. My interests and licenses in the financial industry expanded with time, but I was primarily practicing the Leap system as mentioned in some of the posts. I have chosen to no longer be licensed with Leap, but it did build a foundation for much of my economic and insurance philosophies.
I do not actively solicit life insurance anymore because I now own a life insurance brokerage that deals with life insurance for me. I still believe whole life can provide great protection and be a resource for production.
I have created a process called the Financial FastTrack that other advisors license and use. The process is an educational process with systems to empower the people educated in the process. The product placement is handled by an Accredited Network. I have also created a membership called the Producer Power Hour. Real estate has not been, nor is it my intention to be part of my core business. I have actually been selling properties throughout this year as mentioned on my web-site.
I would be willing to do a short conference call or meeting to answer questions pertaining to me. This post does not include all the details but gives some answers to what was posed, once again concerning me.
12/12/2007 10:26 PM by Garrett Gunderson
Thanks Garrett! I appreciate your candor. Please feel free to contact me if there is anything I can do to assist you.
12/12/2007 10:37 PM by David Doerr
Question fro Garrett
Who owns the Horizon building you are in?
Are you saying you never received any money from Atlas Capital as a referral fee or any other form of compensation?
Are you and Mike Isom still partners?
What about Ray and Les's widows? Is their money tied up in all this mess?
Just wondering.
12/12/2007 10:38 PM by
Dee Randall is the main partner in the Horizon Building, but we have an LLC where I am a minority owner. The building is in Dee's credit. I have never recieved any moneyfrom Atlas Capital as either a referral fee or as any monetary form of compensation from Atlas Capital. I am in Markers Holding LLC with Wade and have not been paid out, but do have an agreement to earn interest on my money. Mike Isom and I are still partners on Foundations Insurance and communicate regularly. I wouldn't be able to answer the last question.
12/12/2007 10:44 PM by Garrett Gunderson
By the way when I say I am in Markers, to clarify mean I put money with wade as a first trust deed loan.
12/12/2007 10:47 PM by Garrett Gunderson
Garrett,
I am pretty sure you know who I am as I tried to contact you in November. I would love to speak to you sometime as you canimagine I am looking for answers. I appreciate you coming on here and giving us some facts. Thank you.
12/12/2007 11:03 PM by PoorSap
Poorsap - I am glad Garrett has begun to answer your questions. I hope he leads you toward a path of understanding.
I also appreciate the offer to discuss the specific case with you in more detail on the phone. The truth is that it's probably not an investment of time that will yield you any return. I'm simply an outsider trying to understand what has happened.
That being said, I think a general understanding of the structure would help several of the more naive investors involved comprehend what happened and may better inform them of how to proceed forward (ie - the ones who think their money will somehow reappear). But for me personally, the exercise is largely academic because learning what happened here can more easily inform my future decisions. When I hear a business transaction that sounds too good to be true, I always run the other direction and tell my friends to stay away from it. In this case most did. That being said, I usually like to explain why I see substantial risks when others do not. I could always speak around the edges of this one, but I never got involved enough to share truly specific insights with my friends. If anyone thinks it would help, I would be more than happy to chat with you and prepare a simple explanation of the economics for those who might still think their money is returning.
PS - to the person who provided the information on the hard money funds. I am well aware of what typical hard money funds do to earn a return. I was curious what funds like Ockham did specifically. I wondered how they were pitched to investors? What transactions were they going to use to create value?
12/13/2007 01:09 AM by Unwinding the web
As far as the Life Insurance money from the widows.... yeah you can pretty much kiss it goodbye. Wade was behind on interest payments to them. In exchange for being late on the payments, Wade allowed them to lien everyone's house in order to get paid (haha).
12/13/2007 08:59 AM by Bill
Bill, that is one heck of an accusation. I would hope your facts are facts if you are going to say something that strong. I feel for the widows if that is true. I believe there were many children left fatherless if my recollection is correct and I guess now they are penniless if what you say is true. Your haha comment is over the line, remember these are real people. I doubt you would say that to those people (widows) if you were face to face with them. Try and realize that as anonymous as the internet can be, your snide comments only keeps people from speaking up and trying to learn about this whole mess.
Unwinding, I know speaking with you won't benefit me. I just don't want my mistakes to be in vain. If my story can keep someone else from making the same mistake then it is worth it for me to tell it. I know some of the places Ockham loaned hard money toto for what rates. I don't think it is ethical for me to share that information but suffice it to say many borrowers (including Sleater) didn't pay back. The rates they were borrowing at were outrageous and I can't imagine earining enough return on your investment/deveolopment deal to pay the loan back. Probably why it is now defunct and Ockham is done.
12/13/2007 09:26 AM by PoorSap
I apologize if my comment was rude. That was not my intention. My haha comment was the fact that it seems Wade has just told people to lien the properties and they would get paid.
I feel for the Widows also. It was sad that Wade conned them into doing that with the money.
12/13/2007 09:46 AM by Bill
Gunderson - how about just the facts? (lose the spin and call a spade a spade)
1. you referred people to him for his "lending expertise". I think the word you are searching for is "lending fraud".
2. You didn't use anyone else's credit, just a few relatives, grandparents, friends and business partners"??? well, okay.... who does that NOT include then? ie: business partner = anyone you used.
3. "Defaulting on a house is part of investing" . Wow. Really? Is that in your book? That you must default on a fraudulent loan, leave people in the lurch or you cannot call yourself an investor?
4. "it is hard to sustain high returns for a long period of time". You forgot the end part "...because sooner or later people get wise and/or the FBI comes calling and we all go to jail."
Hey, I don't know you, or anything about you. But I do know that these scams were not "part of honest investing" carried on by "lending experts" that were lost due to "high risk for high gain" - nor good ideas that just went bad. They were based on fraud. NO RATIONALIZATION WILL TAKE THAT AWAY.
Again - I don't know what part you do or do not play, except that your answers here are misleading.
Have a good day, madam.
12/13/2007 10:27 AM by Joe Friday
The thing that I don't understand about all this is that the amount of money involved in the real estate transactions discussed here seems to be insignificantly small compared to the sales/income generated by Atlas Marketing. That sort of makes me question the whole premise, most of which seems to be unsubstantiated innuendo and guesswork anyway. (1) Why would Sleater be messing with these transactions where the possibility was perhaps a few million in shady returns when, according to other online sources, he had nearly 1000 sales people with an exepcted gross sales of $60 million plus for 2007 (realized sales of over $40m for 2006). (2) With that sort of revenue from Atlas Marketing (and other companies) why would he choose some convoluted multi-layer mortgage scheme for his own house? Surely it wasn't as simple as the income from his legit businesses (?? see concerned parent above) would support, e.g., a $600k house, and he really wanted a $1200k house now, instead of waiting. Although there is the question of how sustainable the income stream from dish network sales might be, and how to turn that temporary income stream into some sort of permanent wealth generating income.
Having a Ph.D. in economics, and some experience, I have to be honest and say that descriptions of "legit" business to "help" people, such as the schemes described by Gunderson above, leave me cold. Such "help" simply exploits unknowledgeable people's vulnerabilities and in the process skims off a fraction of the wealth that they have accumulated on their own.
A reminder to everyone that anyone can post anything to a blog like this, and so far in all of the above, there really is very little hard numerical facts.
12/13/2007 01:10 PM by
Neglected to leave a name label with the above comment.
12/13/2007 01:13 PM by doesn't make sense
You say that you are an investor with wade in Markers and that you have first deed of trust on it. are those loans current or have you taken them over?
12/13/2007 02:22 PM by to garrett
I live in Utah County.....the last few days I saw the Riverbottom house scheme come to light, and it started me looking at the larger picture. I love carsand would see the high end silver cars with ATLAS tags and stickers and want to know what they were into. I am the most sceptical person, and never get involved things that look to good to be true. I own a small business so I just do the retail thing,but I must admit I was interested in the source of this money. I have get rich quickers in my fam and some friends, so I am very guarded, but after this came out, I wanted to see how widespread it is...and any insight is welcome. I saw all the cars from atlas, and recently read the same thing might be happenning with Franklin Squires. Now I see that the riverbottoms deal, and those houses up in canyon cove. My problem is this. I live in cedar hills, an I see ALOT of high end cars in my neighbor hood, at several houses...not just one or 2 but garage fulls...and not hondas, but BMW m6, amgs, astin martins, ferraris and maseratis...and young guys driving them. Makes me raise an eyebrow....then all this hits the fan. Wondering how far these scams go, how many "groups" or "neighborhoods" are effected. Is this FS, atlas, or a copycat group. Its a nice neighborhood, but not supernice, homes from 450-900k. When there is a garage full of a million dollars worth of cars, it draws attention, especially from someone who knows what they are. I just want to see oif you all think I am just paranoid, or should I be worried about possible fraud effecting homes and values next door. Also, there are several" weird " to say the least home deals there too, homes are bought, and rented to out of state people, they dont always stay long...and the "owner" owns more than the one house....Just bizarre, and the wheels are spinning on how deep the rabitt hole goes. Thoughts?
12/13/2007 02:27 PM by Interested
Interested, you can bet that those fancy cars are paid for by equity stripped out of the homes and invested in some "Capital" scheme. Which means, once their 3%/month stops coming in, which will be soon, they will have to sell their cars and their over mortgaged homes and will default and drive down your own equity that you have gained in your house. Its a pretty sad scenario, but that may be what you are looking at.
12/13/2007 02:37 PM by
FYI - Atlas people own (and I use that word loosely) quite a few homes in Cedar Hills.
12/13/2007 02:50 PM by To Interested
In referring to Rex's lending, I was able to put 5 percent down on investment properties and in some cases 0 percent down during acquisition, but when I had bought real estate before had put as much as 20 percent down. I did not pull equity out of the properties mentioned in my previous post. They were acquired for rental cash flow and tax deductions as I was spending significant time with real estate at the time.
I actually put money down on the car you see on my web-site and make the payment out of earnings from one of my companies. It was a 45,000 dollar down payment and the amount I could sell the car versus what I owe is pretty equal.
I bought a home and leased it to Rex. I did not plan on him defaulting and would have preferred that not happen, but I feel fortunate to have the opportunity to still own the property and have the opportunity to sell or lease it. That is my opinion.
I am willing to do a 15 minute conference call. I will answer specific questions pertaining to me, what I am involved in, even where I have made mistakes or had losses personally. Hopefully that will be insightful for those people that have made similar mistakes and seeing what I am doing to be productive moving forward, plus for those that have not experienced those difficulties there may be some insight for you.
There are many people walking away from leases. They do not consider it the same degree of consequence as having a bank loan and therefore has major limitations. David D., you offered your help, I would appreciate taking the person that is making blanket assumptions and pointing the finger of fraud be taken off the site permanently. I don't mind the jabbing due to my web-site (some of it is quite funny) or those looking for answers, but there is one post that I found just a few posts up that is out of line.
This is my last post. I would be willing to talk for 15 minutes on a conference call Friday late afternoon. Let me know if that is of value. I talked about there being more to talk about but I answered the main quesitons posted on this site. This is speculative and really not bringing much in the form of answers. There are some problems that are to be addressed for sure, is this the best forum for it? I guess you decide.
12/13/2007 03:02 PM by
That is exactly what I was afraid of. Figured...now I am going to sit back and see what damage has been or has yet to be done. Must admit...sure did look like a fun lifestyle...but back to reality...you have to work for a living...except that dude who sold facebook to microsoft...he doesnt really need to anymore. well, I am starting to see the magnitude of this deal, I also have some friends in St george that are into something real estate and are making bucks and I am afraid it is something of the same...just trying to get as much info as possible, with my backyard being of top importance.
12/13/2007 03:06 PM by Interested
What is left to say? If you have trouble sleeping at night, find somewhere else to wash your guilt. Ain't nobody buying it here. Blah, blah blah... at the end of the day it still stinks.
12/13/2007 03:11 PM by What is left to say?
Dear What is left to say
Is someone holding a gun to your head to make you read this blog??? If not , feel free to go away.
12/13/2007 03:43 PM by To What is left to say
In my opinion Gunderson scathed the issues and said what he wanted to say to save himself while trying to distance himself from the problem children that are out in the open. If you listen to the radio program and listen to the free capitalist bull crap and then listen to FS free capitalist bull crap and then listen to Wade Sleater talk free capitalist ...... anyone can put it all together.
Garrett could have been a little more informative on the Markers. He could have said - that a bunch of people got together and mortgaged to the hilt luxury homes all over the world? For the fast and free lifestyle of these twenty somethings. Problem was then Sleater may or may not have come along and slapped a little extra debt on the homes???? Sound right Garrett? This is what I heard anyway, just another way to pull some equity out of some property to add to the kitty.
Again - just heard the story so take it for what it's worth. May or may not be true just as Gunderson may or may not give good financial advice! I do know that hundreds of legitimate people are out tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars from being conned by people like Sleater.
12/13/2007 03:44 PM by by I think Gunderson is full of crap
Gunderson - I am VERY interested in this call. Let's do it since you didn't call me back in November. I am a man that returns messages and thought you would also. You dodged me, had your assistant call me and never bothered to call me back. Tell me the dial in and I will be there with bells on. David (this blog host) has my email. BTW, I own 2 of Rex's houses he defaulted on I would be happy to sell them to you if you think having these money pits is a "fortunate" thing. Hell, you can have Sleater's house too if this ownership thing is so great. Personally I think real estate is a decent investement (not the best, but decent) the problem is you don't make money in real estate in selling it, you make money in real estate in acquiring it FOR A REASONABLE AND REALISTIC COST. You tell me how to rent a home that is unfinished since the former tenants did not finish construction that they had money for and the mortgage which is $9,000.00 a month will make money in the long run. Otherwise I am walking and letting the bank foreclose.
Mr. "Doesn't make sense" - I can give you numbers that will make your head spin. I am screwed in my credit due to the "unfortunate events" at Ockham, but at least I am able to get out now.
Interested - I will be willing to bet a dollar to doughnuts that your neighborhood is Capital Leased to out of state owners like myself. I have no idea what neighborhoods you are talking about, but the scenario looks all too similar, sorry. Enjoy your house, at least you really own it unlike the other folks around you.
12/13/2007 03:52 PM by PoorSap
Garrett,
I want to leave this forum open to discussion because all of the other places that have been open are being moderated by people that do not want to allow free discourse, however I think we should all have respect for you for opening yourself up to questions. I will try and moderate the discussion a bit more.
12/13/2007 03:55 PM by David Doerr
Re: Gunderson
My observation is that Garrett is taking a lot of heat because he is 'out in the open' so to speak. Meaning that he has a place of business that is not broke, a large presence on the web, and has never run a Wizard of Oz type of operation--being the man behind the curtain. His "brand" if you will is himself.
I have it on good authority that Gunderson was the "partner" who never got on board with the hard money aspects of Atlas, Founders etc. In fact I heard he was rather obstinate in this regard--not only personally but for his clients. This is part is pure speculation, but I imagine this was at least some of the reason the "merger" between Engenuity and FS was aborted: i.e. Gunderson's skepticim and unwillingess to submit to the alphaism of Koerber. Whatever the reasons, his financial involvement with these operations was according to my source minimal if at all. The association was primarily ideological.
Ockham may be another story. I don't have any information on that business or Gunderson's relationship with it.
Before I get called out as a lacky for Gunderson I want to say that I disagree with 99% of what he's about from a business point of view. I think he's a charlatan. I'm only offering the little bit that I know--recognizing that there may be all sorts of other dirty laundry. However, I think the some of the inaccuracies about his activities with respect to the Atlas and FS groups warrants some clarification.
By the way, I do have a question for Garrett: You mentioned that Rick and Les were giving seminars together. Was Les one of the investors in Founders or were he and Rick just partners ideologically? Just curious, because I could never tell how that worked.
12/13/2007 05:04 PM by No Where Man
To Interested:
Was the Atlas tag on a silver Rover because I think that one was one of Wade's.
12/13/2007 05:12 PM by I'm interested too
Yup, silver rover, also saw it on a 911 turbo. So I get the idea of those guys, I am now interested in the extent of their properties in Cedar Hills, my neighborhood. There are 911s, m3s, amg benzes, m6s, aston Martins, and a ferrari barchetta....all rare cars, all driven by 20 somethings, and one of the houses seems to always be full of people, high end cars and trucks outside. Someone earlier mentioned they knew they "owned quite a few" house in Cedar Hills.....so now I am trying to get some more info. It just didnt fit, although they sure look like they are having, or were having fun. I will take the day to day stress of my business anyday over the stress those guys must have right now
12/13/2007 05:33 PM by Interested
To It Doesn't Make Sense:
I don't mean to knock you, but you did drop your credentials (PhD in Econ), so I guess it's fair game.
Believe it or not a business with a large amount of revenue is not the same as a profitable business. Many businesses that have large growing revenues are losing tons of money. Often they are kept in business by selling debt and equity, on the promise that they will one day become profitable. The particular business you are referring and the subsequent discussion now taking place makes perfect sense: a start-up business with high revenue growth recruiting investors to fund the expansion, bragging about eight-figure revenues that are unsubstantiated, drving fancy cars, living in huge houses, starting other high-growth businesses, ETC.
It made sense before, and it makes even more sense now with the allegations of fraud, excess, and incompetence. It seems to be establishing a very clear pattern of behavior. It's odd that you can't recognize it. It's also odd that you would be so dismissive of the money that could be generated from skimming the equity out of dozens of homes at $200k a piece. I suppose that's petty cash for a PhD. I think you are either a fake or incredibly slow. If I were you I'd call Sally Struthers and demand a refund for your correspondence course, or at a minimum, an exchange for tv/VCR repair or taxidermy.
12/13/2007 05:35 PM by Mr. Stinky
To I'm Interested:
Here's a house for rent by a Tiffany Sleater. Is that that close to your area? The pic makes it look vaccant. Maybe this is one of the places that USED to have the nice cars.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=475&ad=2312774&cat=278&lpid=
12/13/2007 05:40 PM by I'm interested too
As I read more of this blog, and look at the websites of some of the principals, one word comes to mind:
Parasite
These people with all the seminars, programs, methods, etc. claim to be helping people create wealth. In reality they are identifying and extracting a portion of the hard earned wealth that others have accumulated, or in some cases, the normal market economy gains that others are realizing on their investments.
"Whatever the market will bear" has never been an honorable way of conducting one's life. If the value of a property owned by someone else has increased, sure it is ok to get a "good deal" if you can somehow for less than the newly appreciated value, but if taken too far, isn't that just stealing, even if the seller doesn't realize he/she is being stoen from? Most of the transactions described above have some element of this type of dishonesty.
By the way I am the "concerned parent" whose son was an Atlas salesman. We were very upset when he arrived home in 2006 full of this prosperity indoctrination. Especially when we saw the way the sales program skirted various local licensing, labor, and tax laws. Unfortunately, even though this past summer's program did not turn out as well, our son still seems to be a believer in the what he was told and observed and is seeking that form of prosperity life style for himself (unsuccesfully, thank good ness).
12/13/2007 05:58 PM by doesn't make sense
Mr Stinky,
Your comments are right on the mark, even though you misread the intent of my message -- see my more recent posting.
The only thing that doesn't make sense is how in just a short period of time such an apparent large group of people could lose their moral sense of direction and put together such schemes instead of sticking to honest business.
12/13/2007 06:05 PM by doesn't make sense
Stay Clear of this lease to own treasure........ You may end up owning beach front property in Arizona
12/13/2007 06:06 PM by woops - Tiffany Sleater
par·a·site /ˈpærəˌsaɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-sahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation -noun
1. an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.
2. a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.
3. (in ancient Greece) a person who received free meals in return for amusing or impudent conversation, flattering remarks, etc.
You hit it right on the head..... I see all of these guys as the above.
12/13/2007 06:10 PM by webster, uh ..er oxford
No one is holding a gun to my head. I do feel free to go away...
However - my post was to Gunderson, not to everyone else here, when I said: What is left to say? If you have trouble sleeping at night, find somewhere else to wash your guilt. Ain't nobody buying it here. Blah, blah blah... at the end of the day it still stinks.
HE wants to do a conference call, I say WHY? nothing left to say... for him, unless he's trying to unload his guilt, and I aint buying. (well, you get the point).
rock and roll
12/13/2007 06:46 PM by To the person who responded to What is left to day
A few observations:
First I appreciate Mr. Gunderson coming on and attempting to help provide some answers to questions that have been asked - even when it is clear that there are people that are not interested in learning any facts, but are only here to talk trash about anyone they can. I think he actually tried to help the situation by actually providing some information that was clearly misunderstood and misrepresented by many others, and by trying to answer questions that had been asked multpile times regarding how all of the parties were connected.
A few people have posted that he is only trying to distance himself from the other men.....but I think 99% of us would try to do the same thing, and I would argue that that is not necessarily what he is trying to do since he easily could have ignored this fairly insignificant little forum (no offense Mr. Doerr). He clearly established the relationships/partnerships he has had with all of the "big names" mentioned multiple times in this forum, including the fact that he remains friends with one of them!!
Face it - every financial strategy is not for everyone. Depending on goals, resources, EDUCATION, and many other items. It seems blatantly obvious that very few people here understand all of the workings of capital leases, holding funds, real estate, and several other items, so how can so many people sit and talk about how phony and horrible all of these things are? Um - how simply can this be put?? Guns don't kill people - PEOPLE kill people with guns. Cars don't drive drunk, PEOPLE drive cars drunk. Leases aren't bad unless people make them bad through deception or through a lack of understanding of what you are agreeing to.
By the way - Garrett, where did you get those boots? There is no way I could pull the look off....but man - I think you do it nicely. Now I am going to be accused of being on your payroll....
12/13/2007 06:50 PM by common sense now
interested too
that house is about a mile away, interesting though. Wonder if any relation. I am just going to watch and see if any of those houses become empty or go up for sale, and then I will know. From what I seeing, this has just begun, I imagine the fireworks will get going here pretty quick once the feds start going after more parties. I do feel a bit bad for all involved, mostly the victims, with it being so close to the holidays. One question for anyone out there...is there a company called Lucent ( maybe real estate) that operates in st george? I know RK has lucent listed on his site but there is no location. This is in regards some people I know that might be into something in stgeorge. Still just gathering info. Gracias
12/13/2007 07:20 PM by interested
Hey, good news PoorSap, according to "common sense now" although the strategy you got into "isn't for everybody" you may be able to find someon with different goals, resources or EDUCATION than yours for whom it would be a good fit. Maybe "common sense now" can hook you up!
12/13/2007 07:25 PM by
Yes, there is some relation. Tiffany Sleater is Ryan Sleater's wife (Wade's Brother) Not sure though if that is the same Tiffany Sleater that made the ad.
12/13/2007 07:32 PM by Bill
that last post is so dumb... do you think PoorSap would have had any problem with the lease had the individual on the other side not taken advantage of the situation and appears to have been completely dishonest???
I don't think so. I think that at the end of the term or whatever the deal was - had this situation not come up and the deal went according to plan - PoorSap would have thought it was a fine investment and it served him well.
Common sense. Getting decieved isn't a strategy. I wasn't giving PoorSap crap about anything, but I think had everything gone according to plan he would most likely have thought that this was a good fit for him.
12/13/2007 07:43 PM by common sense now
To Common Sense-
You're close - by all that sucking up I was going to guess you were on something, but it wasn't his payroll...
12/13/2007 08:01 PM by to the buckaroo in the bunkhouse
test
12/13/2007 09:10 PM by test
He is a handsome man
12/13/2007 09:13 PM by common sense
"I think that at the end of the term or whatever the deal was - had this situation
not come up and the deal went according to plan - PoorSap would have thought
it was a fine investment and it served him well. "
Common Sense. That may be true, but once this deal was first consummated SOMEBODY was guaranteed to lose. Maybe not Sleater or PoorSap, but SOMEBODY. You make it sound like if two parties engage in a deal that goes "according to plan" it's all good. It sounds like you are suggesting that even if there was a little fraud involved in the Sleater/PoorSap deal, so long as both Sleater (?) and PoorSap got out of it what they had expected everyting, and everyone, would have been just fine. You sound like an educated person, good speller, solid sentence structure, think about the other parties involved . . . even if the two "principals" get out with their expected cash, do you really think there is no stress being put on the economy for the rest of us? You think it won't come back to bite somebody? I've seen too many of these types of deals that were declared win-win by the original parties only because they didn't stick around long enough to see the devastation on the eventual loser. If it hadn't been PoorSap it would certainly have been the next PoorerSap. I find your statement to be shortsighted and narrow in it's application to the economy as a whole because by the time PoorSap got into this deal SOMEBODY was going to lose big -- fraud was built into the transaction and eventually somebody's grandma or kid or whatever was going to get hosed -- a real producer with a real job and a real life's savings who had never worn a goatee. I feel bad that it was PoorSap in this case, I like the cut of his jib, but I assure you it was going to be somebody. You need to look beyond yourself and your partners and your like-minded individuals on these deals and see the cliff you've created for somebody else to walk off, your EDUCATION has taught you selfishness.
12/13/2007 09:43 PM by
I would ask that you do not speak for me. You have no idea how much money I have lost. You can not assume "fraud was built into the transaction", it wasn't. Fraud was perpetrated by some of the individuals who have been mentioned numerous times here. I did not (and never would) go into a deal where "fraud was built in" and find it very offensive that you would assume I would. You do not know me and have no idea what my personal decisions or ethics are. I hope you did not mean to say that, but that is how it came across.
Fraud (or the potential for it) was just made aware to me when I stumbled across thgis blog 3 days ago after doing a Google search and found Mr. Doerr's attachment at the top of this page. I still believe the fraud is a matter of interpretation of the law, but will cooperate fully with anyone if there ever is an investigation. I have read legal opinions that say the Capital Lease is a legitimate way to acquire property but that opinion means nothing if the regulators don't see it that way. I fully understand what may come of this.
As far as "EDUCATION" goes from the post above, I don't know what that meant. I am EDUCATED and would hope my numerous posts on here would be proof of that. I understand about financial strategies not being for everyone. Call me crazy but I would guess this one was not for me. Losing lots of money, having creditors after me for lessees walking out on their responsibilities, houses being foreclosed on to my credit's detriment, trying frantically to sell off property at substantial losses, dealing with people like Sleater, having money in a hard money lending program that vanishes overnight. Yeah you're right that is defintiley not a financial strategy for me. I wish you would have told me 2 years ago when I got into this that was the strategy, maybe I would have made a different decision.
Still waiting for the elusive conference call...
12/13/2007 10:17 PM by PoorSap
I want to apologize for that first paragraph above. I am a bit hypersensitive and after rereading your post, realize you weren't referring to me. I am sorry for the tone of my statement.
12/13/2007 10:24 PM by PoorSap
Wow - you read into things waaay too far. Do we know the details of the lease agreement? Do we know that there was anything wrong with PoorSaps lease other than the other party not fulfilling their part of the agreement? It appears there may be some alarming twists, but is it not possible that the actual lease (or whatever it was) was fine - it simply had a person oon one side that caused the problem.
I was in no way condoning fraud or breaking laws. I was just stating that this was doomed because of the people (**NOT POORSAP**) involved, more than the vehicle or the instrument. The instrument quite possibly had flaws, but again - it is more likely due to the person that purposely built those flaws to take advantage of the situation.
There are many, many, many leases that work, holding funds that are productive and are managed well, real estate deals that involve utilizing equity elsewhere that are positive for everyone. The point again is that it always has more to do with the PEOPLE than the instrument.
You can shove your selfishness statement. You don't know me, I wrote 4 paragraghs on a web forum. Blame my "education" for this statement also - there is a HUGE difference between selfishness and self-interest. I am self interested because I have a wife and kids to provide for, which by the way is evidence of how selfish I am not. haha - although that is evidence of how selfish I am because making them happy makes me happy and that is all the reward I can ask for. It isn't all about money.
Poor Sap was taken advantage of flat out. His deal was bad from the get-go, I do not blame him, but even he understands that there is only so much he can blame others. At the end of it all he made the choice to enter into the agreement. He was screwed, but he knows that he had a part in it. Not the deception, but in the free choice to enter into the agreement. Doesn't mean he was stupid or naive or anything of the sort. Don't twist my words to say that I suggested otherwise.
12/13/2007 10:24 PM by common sense
P.S.S. One more thing Common Sense, I FULLY understand Capital Leases. Your statement about not understanding them is not true in my case. You are right about guns and drunks. The Capital Lease hasn't killed me but people who have swindled me have destroyed my credit and my name. I would just tell you that this never would have happened to me if the Capital Lease strategy hadn't been presented. The drunk wouldn't kill people if he didn't have alcohol and the gun wouldn't have killed had there not been bullets.
Maybe I need to get out of the "Scarcity Paradigm" that many of you so eloquently present. I would if I weren't losing my life savings, my credit rating and what resources I had.
12/13/2007 10:31 PM by PoorSap
This question is for Bill? Bill I am a personal friend of Danita Hooper (Rays Widow) and have been concerned for sometime that Wade and FS have talked her into investing her money with them. I just didn't believe that someone could have no soul and do that to a widow. But, I have personally seen much more than that with Wade in his business and other dealings. That being said, do you know for sure that Danita has money invested with Wade? I know for a fact that Tina Mcquire had a 1st trust deed on some Markers property and I know that she was paid off when a new mortgage was place on it. Do you know if Danita is in the same situation? If she is, there are people who can help her and her family. Please let me know the truth.
12/14/2007 12:55 AM by Concerned Friend
How about asking Ms Hooper directly, since you are a personal friend?
Or are you? Obviously you don't want to leave personal identifying info on this log and obviously anyone can post anything, truthful or not.
12/14/2007 08:12 AM by to - concerned friend
Thanks, I am done here now. I don't need to be preached to.
12/14/2007 11:11 AM by PoorSap
I agree, PoorSap is just trying to get answers, we do not need to be accusatory.
12/14/2007 11:17 AM by David Doerr
CONFERENCE CALL 712-429-0700 CODE 381514, PLEASE HAVE QUESTIONS READY TO ASK AT THE BEGINNING 5:15 MST
12/14/2007 12:18 PM by
To Concerned Friend;
Not sure which widow it was, but as of October Wade was almost 9 months behind on interest payments to her and as I mentioned above she placed a lien on most of Wade's/Kyle's/Whoevers house.
I question the fact that she had a 1st trust deed on those properties. There's no way she would have ever been in first position on any property they would have owned. I know with the money they bought a couple properties. One in Nevada and one in Arizona (which they are so upside down in)
Easy thing to do is just ask her I guess.
12/14/2007 01:13 PM by Bill
Don't get all sensitive about this, it's just a funny quote I ran onto today, gotta love Mark Twain:
"Get your facts straight first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."
-Mark Twain
12/14/2007 02:15 PM by
correction on conference call, it is at 5:15 est, 4:15 cst, 3:15 mst etc.
12/14/2007 02:42 PM by
Poor Sap - They told you that you couldn't have comitted fraud when you purchased the properties but what about when the lender thought money was being brought to the closing table and that didn't happen? I know Sleater does these deals to skim funds for his pocket at the closing. I would be very interested to take a look at the HUD between the seller and the first buy. If I were you, I would go back to the title company and do some leg work and make sure you followed the transactions.
12/14/2007 04:59 PM by about conference call
That call was major BS, more like press conference. I've never heard more whiners.
12/14/2007 05:11 PM by The Quiet One
Anyone willing to give a brief recap of what was discussed?
12/14/2007 05:18 PM by Not able to make the call
Please tell me that PoorSap got a little satisfaction from the call . . . I hope he got some solid info to follow up on.
12/14/2007 05:36 PM by
To PoorSap,
I am concerned about a good friend who was part of the group that moved into homes in Canyon Cove (where the home is that Wade lived in). Did you finance any other homes for the group other than Wade's?
12/14/2007 07:21 PM by Intrigued
I am thoroughly intrigued by everyone on here who is being completely unproductive through their random comments. I find it somewhat ironic that because of all these terrible things happening nobody has thought to ask themselves who was supposed to be accountable if something negative happened to the investments. Let me ask you these questions: did anyone force you to put money with any of these companies? If you were doing capital leases, are you the one who signed the documents? If someone did force you, or if someone signed the documents with your name then I would say you have a legitimate complaint. If no one forced you, and if you signed the documents, then the only complaint should be you got yourself involved with something you clearly did not know enough about and you paid a pricey tuition for it- meaning, you are the accountable one. There is no risky investments, just risky investors. The investment could be completely bad, but ultimately it is the investor's decision to do the investment. If you don't know enough about it, or if you have no clear contingency or exit strategy, then don't get involved because you are gambling.
We all have heard live within our means right? What about investing within our means? If your life is devastated because these investments went bad you probably should not have been investing in them in the first place. Whenever you get involved with an investment you always need to think of what will happen in the worst case scenario like what has taken place here. If the worst case scenario were to happen and you can't live without the principle or interest, or you can't make the payments on the properties that are in your name, then you shouldn't have done the deal, period!
I have seen so much hype over the last two years about everyone wanting to have their passive income equal their expenses. This is great as long as your production equals your expenses as well. Too many people thought if they could just get enough passive income to cover their expenses by investing in these types of investments then they could just turn off their production, and they ultimately ended up increasing their expenses to supercede their production. Anytime this happens you are setting yourself up for failure. Production is key, being passive is not.
Now, I am not saying I don't see any of your frustrations. I personally paid a $100,000 tuition by investing with Wade. Ultimately, I am the accountable one because I made the decision to put my money there, no one forced me. My challenge to everyone on this site who is complaining is to instead of making your frustrations destructive to yourself and everyone you are defaming, make your frustrations productive by asking yourself the right questions. Is making derogatory comments on this site helping anyone? Does it really make you feel better about the situation to say the things you are saying? What can you do in this moment to just to let go of what has happened so you can move forward as productively as possible? Sitting here sulking in the failure of someone else is not going to get you anywhere, it is not going to bring your money back, and it is not going to pay the mortgages that are in your name. If you are in a position where you are financially devastated because of the things that have taken place, then what can you do to be productive in this moment to overcome this situation. Sitting on this site, saying the things you are saying, is not going to get you any farther ahead.
I wish everyone going through this the best of luck. Just remember, if you are relying on someone else to get you out of this situation it is not going to happen. Be productive! Live - Learn - and Move on!
12/14/2007 09:07 PM by RAF
Bravo RAF.
12/14/2007 09:43 PM by I agree
you are correct that it is ones own individual responsibility to vett these things and are the only ones responsible for the choice to put $ in or not, to get funny with their mortgages or not, and to believe the things they are told, or not. I did not get involved, never have, but have been watching with interest from the outside. I have fam andfriends that are very prone to falling for crap like this, so i am learning as much as i can so i know what garbage is being pitched to "more trusting" individuals. I like to know names, involved companies, affiliated companies, and even faces if i can. Utah valley is indeed a small world and I am sure I have crossed paths with some of these charactures. I also chimed in earlier because it would seem that my neighborhood has also had the good fortune to be inhabited by some of the groups mentioned in this thread, and when homes get foreclosed on, it affects me and my family thru loss of value. I guess what set me off was a constant barrage of get rich quick schemes and frauds that have both dominated the news, and my inbox and dinner conversations. Work hard, position yourself to take advantages of good business opportunities, when they arise, research, research research, then make a move and take responsibiliy for that move. The feds will hopefully take care of the rest of these clowns running these scams. I have had it.
12/14/2007 10:15 PM by interested
I fully agree that investors shouldn't invest more than they can afford to lose and should do their homework before investing. I hope that the ongoing discussion on this blog will be a much cheaper education for an investor doing some research into 'equity milling' and 'capital leasing' than the "Wade Sleater School of Investments".
I also hope, RAF, that you've filed a complaint with the Utah Division of Securities to help prevent Atlas Capital management from simply changing their business name and address and moving on to their next victims.
Link: http://www.securities.utah.gov/complaint_general.html
BTW - Was the conference call really that uneventful that nobody has even a recap?
12/14/2007 10:18 PM by concerned family member
I am hoping someone on here can help give me some answers since I am unable to get them from Franklin Squires, Hill-Erickson or Newcastle Holdings....so here is my story...we own a home in the Midwest that we had been trying to sell...No luck. Enter Hill-Erickson, offering to purchase my home for 70% of appraised value in cash as long as I paid for the appraisal, home inspection etc. I follow thru do all those things, at the last moment...they tell me that cash deals have just been pulled from the table and all they are allowed to do is seller finance deals. They are unwilling to give any money upfront, but everyone that I spoke to at that company, told me that they have NEVER defaulted on any of their seller financed properties. They assured me that they purchased more than 40 homes a month just from the state my home is located in. So since our home had been for sale for a year, we already had taken it off the market, due to their impending purchase....we sold it to them for no money down, seller financing. (Yes we were motivated/desperate).
Now...the first payment actually arrived...although it was several days late, however, the following months have not been paid. I have been patient and am being told that they are in the process of re-structuring...but in the meantime, I am trying to protect my credit and paying for a house that is not even in my name. Can someone tell me what the heck is happening here? Am I the type of "victim" mentioned in earlier posts? It seems that there are so many types of questionable business transactions taking place with this company...I don't even know what to think anymore.
I am trying to find other people like me who have sold their property to Hill-Erickson/Newcastle Holdings and are NOT getting paid...what are you doing about it? Does anyone have any advice for me...
Thanks in advance for some help.....
12/14/2007 11:01 PM by In Need of Answers...
I have a client in Florida with 4 condos, FS approached him in the same manner, and offered the same seller finance.
My opinion, run away.
12/14/2007 11:05 PM by David Doerr
Wade Sleater had a host of his groupies move into Canyon Cove the same time he did, several different people that were much like poor sap financed those homes. Who is your friend, I could find out who is on title and what the scoop is. I am very concerned about Canyon Cove because these twenty somethings that talked the big talk of Gundersons capatalist producer crap, all they did is consume and only produced problems for themselves and everyone they were involved with. They also produced problems for hard working neighbors that will have to live with future foreclosures and potential shrinking values because of those foreclosures.
12/14/2007 11:59 PM by to intrigued
I am not involved with Franklin Squires, or any of the companies mentioned on Rick Koerber's website (Hill-Erickson, New Castle Holdings, etc.) However, I, like "interested" have watched family members become involved with these companies for the past two years. I've asked a zillion questions, and I always ended the conversation confused as to how the "programs" were managing to pay out 5% per month through Hard Money lending and buying and reselling homes.
I've learned the following, which may or may not be exact, but it is based on my research:
One of my family members mentioned a program that is taught by Franklin Squires about "sell your home in 21 days" . . . and, sell it at a LOSS. (?!?!) My family member continually talked about the time value of money (i.e. the sum of all future cash flows, brought back to the present value of today's dollar). My family member said that by accepting a large down payment on a home being sold at a loss, you could take that down payment, invest it in a hard-money fund, and still make more on your funds than if you accepted 100% of the value for the home you sold.
Additionally, by seller financing the home to the new buyer, not only can you turn a profit on the down payment through the hard-money deal, but also you continue to receive monthly cash flows from the home.
On the Utah County website, you can search by entity name. I haven't had time to get into all of the different FS entities, but I did find some interesting research on one of the entities. You can see several transactions that show a similar pattern:
And investor/person purchases the property, typically with two trust deeds signed on the same day. (There is usually a sizeable first trust deed, and then a second trust deed in a smaller amount.) If you look at the TD closely, most of them have an adjustable rate rider.
From what I could see on the abstract, typically, within a few weeks (or days), one of the FS entities (i.e. Hill Erickson, New Castle, etc) then purchases the home through an All-Inclusive Trust Deed with Assignment of Rents, and the investor/person acts as the lender. I'm not a mortgage guru, but I believe an All-Inclusive Trust Deed is the same as a wraparound mortgage. I.e. John bought the house with a mortgage from XYZ bank, seller-financed it to Sally. Sally pays John, who pays the XYZ mortgage. The original two trust deeds appear to be senior debt to the property, and it also appears that no reconveyance deeds are recorded for the first two trust deeds.
I would guess that as long as Sally is paying John, and John pays the bank, then no one has any worries; however, if Sally stopped paying John, then John is still stuck holding the original lien, and now has no cash flow generated from the property to pay the mortgage. (Unless the money he used for the down payment is still performing in the hard-money fund.)
So, if anyone is willing to help, I have the following questions:
1. Are the Franklin Squires entities still paying for the homes they bought? Where were they generating the cash flow to pay for so many properties?
2. Are the hard-money funds still performing?
3. Are the hard-money funds a different FS entity? How many different funds are there? (Is Ockham (mentioned by PoorSap) somehow tied to this whole thing?)
If anyone knows additional details (or corrections to my assumptions), please add them to the conversation.
12/15/2007 12:29 AM by Trying to understand
Please spare the comments that totally repeat the same ignorant info that has already been entered multiple times.
1 - I think we pretty mush have it established that several of Sleater's friends lived in Canyon Cove. I think we've also established that the home values in the neghborhood were overly inflated as a result of some of the methods they used, so you should probably be happy that this will bring the values back to earth and find some balance.
2 - Just because I am sick of hearing "twenty-somethings" I just want to clarify there were plenty of 30 somethings and older, and plenty that were successful prior to their current infamous endeavors.
3 - "Gunderson's capatalist producer crap" (or capitalist as it should be) did not make these people do anything. Pretty sure we've also established that there were several people/organizations teaching similar philosophies, and that Mr. Gunderson was not very active in the Provo/Orem Atlas/Franklin Squires scene.
Just like we shouldn't bail out all of the sub-prime mortgage companies - we shouldn't bail out these people either. It is a lesson learned that will benefit them in the future.
12/15/2007 12:37 AM by read the previous postings
To RAF: I agree with a lot of what was said even though it's coming from one of Wade's right hand men....
12/15/2007 12:57 AM by Bill
To 'In Need of Answers' -
The FBI has established a task force to inestigate potential mortgage fraud. I'd recommend filling out the form below to have them look into it. (there is probably a separate form for your state, but I believe FS may be headquartered in SLC, so you're probably fine filing this one as well).
http://saltlakecity.fbi.gov/filelink.html?file=/mortgagefrm_email.pdf
12/15/2007 09:19 AM by concerned family member
To Bill:
I am not sure what you are trying to state from you above comment so please forgive me if I have taken your comment out of context but it seems you have another assumption you need to get over. If you are referring to me as one of Wade's right hand men then you are incorrect. I have met Wade once and that was in May of 06, other than that I have never had any conversations with him or been involved with any of his people other than Kyle Nelson because he was who I worked with when I initially invested the $100,000. With Kyle, I had a total of two conversations. Again, no one forced me to put my money there and I am 100% accountable for my actions.
Am I happy about losing my money in this investment? Of course not, but I know if I sit here and sulk in this failure I am not going to get anything productive accomplished. The time and energy I could be waisting on complaining I am doing something productive about it with other resources or business ventures I am taking on. I lost $100,000, now what can I do to be productive in the moment to earn it back instead of letting it devesate my life and negatively consume my thoughts.
The only person I know personally out of anyone being named is Garrett. I can't speak for Garrett but I can tell you out of all these companies who are suffering right now his company is the 19 top growing company in Utah. Reading these posts all I see is Garrett being accused of being "guilty by association" with no direct reference to anything he has done wrong. Did he have past business ventures with the other people named? Yes, but there is a reason those business ventures were ended and are no longer. Has Garrett made mistakes? Yes, but he actively works to overcome those mistakes and is very open about them. He was willing to discuss them yesterday on the call but only one person spoke up on the call and that was Poorsap. After the call was over Poorsap seemed satisfied with the information he received and thanked Garrett for his time. The funny thing is Garrett has never met Poorsap, Garrett has never worked with Poorsap, but Poorsap's advisor knows Garrett so again he got accused of being "guilty by association". Even being "guilty by association", Garrett was willing to have a confrence call to help in any way he could, but again, only Poorsap spoke up when there were multiple people on the call. I have not seen one example listed that directly ties Garrett to anyone's problems so I am dissappointed people are trying to defame him when right now he seems the only one doing good. Garrett has never personally collected any of your money, Garrett has never personally invested any of your money. Garrett had every opportunity in the world to collect people's money and invest it in these funds getting his spread like everyone else listed did- he never took that opportunity becasue it wasn't about the money to him. He knew if something were to happen like what is happening now he wouldn't of had the power to get people their money back so he never took that chance. The people who took that chance are now faced with this difficult situation that Garrett has nothing to do with.
Again, please be productive in your comments. Gossiping or spreading false rumors isn't going to make this situation any easier for anyone involved. I am sure Mr. Doerr's intention in starting the forum was so people could communicate productively about the things they have been involved with and work to come up with a possilbe resolution, not to falsely accuse people of things they have no involvment with.
12/15/2007 12:22 PM by RAF
To RAF; I apologize if you are not the person I'm thinking of. I'm assuming your initials are R.A.F. which are the EXACT initials of one of Wade's right hand men. If those are not your initials and/or you are not the person I'm referring to, I apologize
12/15/2007 01:27 PM by Bill
Concerned Family MemberI have filed a complaint with the Division of Securities. Thanks for your encouragement. Luckily without the monthly investment return from Atlas Capital, my mortgage only comes to 90% of my take-home pay. Another Concerned Family Member
12/16/2007 09:37 AM by Another Concerned Family Member
Another Concerned Family Member
Please also contact the Utah Division of Real Estate, if the payment is 90% of your take home pay, mortgage fraud probabally has been committed along the way. Your "loan officer" needs to be investigated as well.
12/16/2007 03:53 PM by David Doerr
While this thread has been informative and helpful, it seems there is a need for those who are looking for answers to have a more focused discussion. An actual forum would be ideal, but in lieu of this, a blog has been created to help facilitate this discussion. Maybe some will find it helpful.
http://fraud-forum.blogspot.com
12/16/2007 09:52 PM by
I do not agree with any of the actions of FS or Sleater and his group. I do believe that some form of fraud is typically carried out in these transactions. That being said, you should know as a loan officer that loans existed in our business that did not require a person state to income or funds on the application. So it is recklace of you to state "investigate the mortgage loan officer", simply because a borrower is at this high debt ratio. I think our industry is getting beaten down enough without someone inside thinking before speaking.
12/16/2007 11:26 PM by to David
If you are trying to get money back from Wade Sleater then you may want to file your complaint with the state as soon as you can because you're already falling behind others: LIKE THE IRS
Entry #:116465-2007 Recorded: 8/10/2007 11:13:56 AM
Consideration:$104,039.78 IRS TAX LIEN
Abbv Legal Desc: - SERIAL #381670507
REAL PROPERTY: LT 3 MT AIREY AT RED HAWK RANCH R1-N26,2
SLEATER, SHANDA
SHANDA DAWN SLEATER TRUST SEPT 10 2004
SLEATER, WESTON W (Wade goes by his middle name on some deals and uses his first name "Weston" on others. Also he has some property in his wife's name:
SLEATER, SHANDA
12/17/2007 02:37 AM by Try Pay-day Loans Wade - They're Lenders!!
Does anyone know what relation SLEATER, RYAN C & TIFFANY T are to Wade and Atlas?
The State of Utah and the Utah Mortgage Fraud Task Force are searching for victims of Atlas Capital and Wade Sleater. If you know someone who is a victim, or if you have information that is connected to this investigation then contact:
Phone: (801) 530-6747
email: realestate@utah.gov
Heber M. Wells Building
2nd Floor
160 East 300 South
Salt Lake City 84114-6711
Send in any information that you may have or encourage those you know who might be affected to do the same.
12/17/2007 by Shanda Dawn - What's that flower you have on
12/17/2007 02:47 AM by Randy
Who is Dennis Webb in relations to Wade Sleater? He is listed as a mentor to Wade. He is also Wade's mission president. I wonder if there is any connection to Atlas. I believe Webb is the owner of OK Kids or opperation kids: Toll-Free: 888.257.KIDS
· info@operationkids.com
12/17/2007 03:04 AM by Tiffany Sleater
ATLAS CAPITAL & WADE SLEATER SOUND A LOT LIKE HUNTERS CAPITAL:
According to charging documents, Bouchard and his company, Hunters Capital, commited the following crimes:
Approached investors with the following offers:
*
Investor's money would be used for hard money loans to buy real estate in exchange for promissory notes.
*
Investors could get their deposit back with a 30-day written notice.
*
Investors would receive a 3-4% return per month on their investment with Hunters Capital.
HELLO ATLAS & WADE YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING AREN'T YOU???
12/17/2007 03:17 AM by BRADY BUNCH
Ryan Sleater is Wade's Brother and Tiffany is Ryan's wife
12/17/2007 10:57 AM by Bill
The reason the creaps arnt saying anything is because they have no good to say. can you say Jail Time they will like that but you know what goes around comes back. Hope they dont bend over.
12/17/2007 03:06 PM by comy sars
huked on fonix werked fore comy sars!
12/17/2007 06:36 PM by To comy sars
Sorry for spelling. Didn't know you had to be a perfect speller to post on this web site. When you know people who have been screwed , spelling is the least of the concerns.
12/17/2007 08:29 PM by
Dennis Webb was Wade's mission president. He did not teach Wade any business practices, never partnered on anything related to Wade's business ventures, nor did he ever do any real estate or investing deals with Wade. He was just his mission president and Wade respected him.
12/17/2007 10:10 PM by facts
Looks like a lot of people should have this Dennis Webb for a mentor, maybe Wade wouldn't have been able to swindle so many people. Wade probably "respected" him so much since he didn't fall for his sales pitch. Question for you LDS people out there. How does the Church hold an individual like this accountable? Especially if he is still an active member of the LDS faith.
12/17/2007 11:06 PM by
not for long.......not free for long either. what a mess, the more i look, the more widespread it is
12/17/2007 11:45 PM by
HUH? WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO? NOT WHAT FREE FOR LONG?
12/18/2007 12:22 AM by To above
I assumed they were talking about wade being a "in good standing" with the lds church. So I was saying he wont be in good standing for long, and , if this is all true, which it looks to be, and the feds catch up with him, he wont be walking free for long either.
12/18/2007 10:19 AM by
The Utah Division of Securities has an open investigation into Atlas Capital. Anyone with information or a complaint can contact the lead investigator, Dianna Parrish, at 801-530-6600 or email her at dparrish@utah.gov
You may also submit a formal complaint with the following form...
http://www.securities.utah.gov/complaint_general.html
12/18/2007 01:16 PM by concerned family member
Wade has hired the law firm Snell and Wilmer to handle Atlas Capital affairs. David Leta is the contact person. He can be reached at dleta@swlaw.com.
12/21/2007 11:25 AM by
It appears a new FreeCapitalist website has been launched. The new discussion boards might be a good place to ask what some of the connections are to Atlas Capital and other threads on this forum.
The New FreeCapialist Discussion Board
12/21/2007 12:06 PM by talk about it
Please tell us why anyone would want to contact Wade's attorney and what he could do for us.
12/21/2007 12:34 PM by Poor Sap
I'm posting an article from today's Wall Street Journal that talks about the same thing FS/Atlas and every other downstream LLC are/were doing. Some of these guys are going to jail for a LONG time.
Poor Sap, I agree with you. There's no point. Lawyers don't work for free and before too long they'll realize that their expenses aren't being covered and will drop him.
Fraud Seen as a Driver in Wave of Foreclosures; Atlanta Ring Scams Bear Stearns, Getting $6.8 Million in Loans -- Wall Street Journal
Wall Street Journal, By Michael Corkery
December 21, 2007
Skyrocketing foreclosures are a testament to how easy it was to borrow from mortgage lenders in recent years.
It may also have been easy to steal from them, to judge from a multimillion-dollar fraud scheme that federal prosecutors unraveled here in Atlanta. The criminals obtained $6.8 million in mortgages from Bear Stearns Cos., including a $1.8 million mortgage to Calvin Wright, a New Yorker who told the investment bank that he and his wife earned more than $50,000 a month as the top officers of a marketing firm. Mr. Wright submitted statements showing assets of $3 million, a federal indictment alleged.
In fact, Mr. Wright was a phone technician earning only $105,000 a year, with assets of only $35,000, and his wife was a homemaker. The palm-tree-lined mansion they purchased with Bear Stearns's $1.8 million recently sold out of foreclosure for just $1.1 million. Bear Stearns, meanwhile, posted the first quarterly loss in its 84-year history as it wrote down $1.9 billion of mortgage assets yesterday.
Fraud goes a long way toward explaining why mortgage defaults and foreclosures are rocking financial institutions, Wall Street and the economy. The Federal Bureau of Investigation says the share of its white-collar agents and analysts devoted to prosecuting mortgage fraud has risen to 28%, up from 7% in 2003.
Suspicious Activity Reports, which many lenders are required to file with the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network when they suspect fraud, shot up nearly 700% between 2000 and 2006.
In 2006, losses from fraud could total a record $4.5 billion, a 100% increase from the previous year, says Arthur Prieston, chairman of the Prieston Group, which provides lenders with mortgage-fraud insurance and training. The surge ranges from one-off cases of fudging and fibbing to organized criminal rings. The FBI says its active mortgage-fraud cases have increased to 1,210 this year from 436 in 2003. In some regions, fraud may account for half of all foreclosures. "We've created a culture where a great many people know how to take advantage of the system," says Mr. Prieston.
Yet the system itself bears blame. The evolution of mortgages into a securities instrument turned loan origination into a competition. Caution gave way to a push for speed and volume. Embroiled in an all-out war for market share, issuers reduced barriers to credit, for example, by offering so-called "stated-income" loans, which require no proof of income. "The stated-income loan deserves the nickname used by many in the industry, the 'liar's loan,'" says the Mortgage Asset Research Institute, which works with lenders to prevent fraud. A recent review of a sampling of about 100 stated-income loans revealed that almost 60% of the stated amounts were exaggerated by more than 50%, MARI says.
It didn't take a rocket scientist to steal a fortune from mortgage lenders in recent years. That much is clear from the Atlanta scheme. It was perpetrated in large part by a 23-year-old college dropout named Gregory Jerome Wings Jr., aka G-Money. His accomplices included a young nightclub owner, along with the director of an underground documentary called "Crackheads Gone Wild," a cautionary tale about drug addiction.
Their scam was garden variety: recruit borrowers with good credit to apply for gigantic loans, often of the stated-income variety, using false income and asset statements. Find a mortgage broker willing to submit false information, and find appraisers who will approve inflated values.
The perpetrators line their pockets with the proceeds, using some as down payments or for future renovations. Some buyers diverted proceeds to themselves through shell companies.
The brazenness of the scheme is illustrated by the case of Mr. Wright, the New York telephone worker who posed as a highly paid executive to obtain a $1.8 million mortgage from Bear Stearns. Recruited into the scheme by an acquaintance in Atlanta, Mr. Wright, with the help of ring leaders, diverted hundreds of thousands of dollars from that Bear Stearnsmortgage to himself, to Mr. Wings and to others in the scheme, according to a federal indictment.
In the very same week, Mr. Wright obtained a $1.9 million mortgage on a second value-inflated mansion near Atlanta, this time from BankFirst, a unit of Minneapolis-based Marshall BankFirst Corp. This deal also brought enormous spoils to Mr. Wright, Mr. Wings and other accomplices.
"It was so easy, it's incredible," says Akil Secret, attorney for Mr. Wright, who has pleaded guilty to bank fraud and is awaiting sentencing.
As profits from the scheme fattened their wallets, these young men became the envy of their peers, especially since their actions involved none of the dangers of street crime. "You see a guy who is 23 and he's driving a fancy car. You go into clubs and everyone seems to know him, and you kind of want to be like him," says defense attorney Rickey Richardson, explaining how his client, Daryl Smith, got involved in the scheme. "This wasn't drugs. This wasn't guns. This seemed clean and OK."
Residents of some fancy Atlanta suburbs spotted the scheme. They became suspicious when new homes in their neighborhoods sold for sky-high prices, then remained vacant. After the same individual bought several such homes in one ritzy development, neighbors alerted authorities.
One homeowner who helped expose the fraud and other schemes in his neighborhood now carries a loaded handgun in his truck. "This is serious stuff," he says. "We are putting people in prison for many, many years."
Since federal authorities issued an indictment in April 2006, Mr. Wings, Mr. Smith, Mr. Wright and about 10 others have pleaded guilty to various counts, including bank fraud, and are awaiting sentencing. Another ringleader was convicted in federal court last month. Their sentences could be lengthy: In an unrelated case, an Atlanta attorney with no prior criminal record was sentenced in August 2005 to 30 years in federal prison on a mortgage-fraud conviction. Mr. Wings declined to comment for this story, as did Messrs. Wright and Smith.
In the wake of their downfall, debate has been intense about how such an unaccomplished group could defraud top-tier financial institutions out of millions.
Prosecutors call the scheme sophisticated, noting its reliance upon forged and falsified documentation.
Lenders agree. Bear Stearns says the scheme evaded its antifraud efforts by supplying false information at every step of the application process. "We as an industry cannot eliminate fraud entirely," Tom Marano, head of mortgages and asset-backed securities for Bear Sterns, said in a statement about the Atlanta ring.
"We can and do continue to develop systems and detection techniques that evolve with the complexity of criminal schemes.'"
But others contend that the Atlanta case illustrates the recklessness with which lenders were issuing mortgages in recent years. "This case should have been an indictment of the mortgage industry," says Patrick Deering, an Atlanta defense attorney involved in the case.
In an eye-opening setback for prosecutors, Mr. Deering and other defense attorneys successfully defended three home builders against charges that they had participated in the scheme.
Prosecutors had attacked the home builders for failing to raise red flags when they witnessed mortgages being issued far in excess of what the builders were being paid.
But some defense attorneys went on the offensive and attacked lenders for failing to guard against fraud.
Particularly illuminating was the testimony of Lucy Lynch, a former vice president of mortgage operations at BankFirst.
"Fraud was not really a consideration in our world," Ms. Lynch testified, according to a trial transcript.
Ms. Lynch said the bank relied on an outside "loan officer" at a reputable mortgage broker to serve as its "eyes and ears" in the real-estate transactions. As it turned out, that person was indicted as part of the fraud ring. Ms. Lynch stressed that the bank took measures such as running all loan applications through a software program designed to detect fraud. "And things that didn't seem quite right, an underwriter could quickly pick those things out," Ms. Lynch said, according to a trial transcript. "So as far as having an actual policy or procedure around fraud, we didn't think it was necessary, quite frankly."
A total of $4.9 million in loans from BankFirst were used by the Atlanta fraud ring. In some cases, the bank gave its blessing to closing documents that showed unexplained payments of hundreds of thousands of dollars to obscure companies that turned out to be owned by the fraudsters. On three different Atlanta-area homes over a three-month period starting in late 2005, closing documents approved by BankFirst showed large payouts to the same companies.
Ms. Lynch said the bank assumed that the cash was going to subcontractors for construction work. But the bank never asked for invoices. In an interview, Ms. Lynch says the bank was primarily checking to make sure the borrower wasn't being charged any additional fees or debt.
"We didn't do anything different from the rest of the industry,"" she said, adding that she believes her testimony helped convict three perpetrators of the fraud -- two borrowers and a real-estate agent who helped lead the ring.
Asked in court why the pattern of payouts didn't raise any red flags, Ms. Lynch responded: "Do you have any idea how many loans came into BankFirst during that time period?" She said BankFirst typically allowed a "15-minute window" from the time it received closing documents by fax to the time it released the loan proceeds to the borrower.
Ultimately, prosecutors failed to convict any of the three home builders. Charges against one were dropped.
Another was the subject of a mistrial. And the third was acquitted before the case went to the jury. "These were the wrong people on trial," says Mr. Deering, whose client, home builder Randall Tharp, was acquitted.
One of the biggest losers in the Atlanta scheme was Bear Stearns. A total of $6.8 million in Bear Stearns loans were used by the enterprise. The fourth-largest mortgage that Bear Stearns originated in 2006 went to a borrower in the Atlanta scheme. That involved a mansion on which Bear Stearns lent nearly $3 million.
Today, that mansion is in foreclosure and listed at $1.75 million.
Bear Stearns says falsified income and asset documents are difficult to detect "if they are part of a sophisticated fraud ring." In the case of the $1.8 million loan that Bear Stearns issued to Mr. Wright, the New York telephone worker, the company says it verified Mr. Wright's employment and assets.
But Mr. Wright's attorney, Mr. Secret, says, " Bear Stearns certainly couldn't have verified any of the assets or any of the money. It simply wasn't there."
A relative newcomer to the mortgage-origination business, Bear Stearns in 2005 created Bear Stearns Residential Mortgage to focus on "Alt-A" mortgages, a category between prime and subprime loans. Bear says its Alt-A loans included stated-income mortgages that required verification of assets.
During its first full year of business in 2006, Bear Stearns Residential Mortgage originated 19,715 mortgages for a combined $4.37 billion, according to data compiled by the Federal Reserve and analyzed by The Wall Street Journal.
Bear Stearns Residential Mortgage rejected about 13% of applications, compared with an average denial rate of 29% nationally, according to the Fed data. Bear Stearns says that it had a lower denial rate because all of its applicants had already been screened through its "on line pre-qualifying" site before they submitted a formal application.
Since the scheme, Bear Stearns says it has enhanced its monitoring of payouts listed on closing statements. BankFirst stopped issuing residential mortgages altogether, citing the declining market.
Some banks victimized by the Atlanta ring say they depended in part on a party called the closing attorney to protect their interests. But often, lenders neither choose nor pay for the closing attorney: The buyer does.
In this case, the closing attorney was part of the fraud ring. The 58-year-old lawyer, Raymond Costanzo Jr., known in the ring as "Uncle Joe," signed off on several fraudulent sales, and collected $250,000 from the scheme, the indictment alleges. In 2006, Mr. Costanzo pleaded guilty to bank fraud and is awaiting sentencing.
Of course, the Atlanta scheme wouldn't have worked if not for appraisers willing to approve values far in excess of what builders were charging for new homes. Indeed, Bear Stearns and BankFirst say they ordered multiple appraisals of the homes they financed. Yet no evidence has emerged of appraisers receiving kickbacks. And no appraisers got indicted.
In some neighborhoods, the fraud scheme itself may have artificially raised values. Another explanation is that the appraisal market is fiercely competitive. Experts say some appraisers may offer inflated values in exchange for their standard fee of several hundred dollars -- a strategy that can win business without exposing an appraiser to charges of fraud. "Appraisers get sucked into these schemes because they are starving for work and many of them don't know what the heck they are doing," says Carl Heckman, co-founder of the Georgia Real Estate Fraud Prevention and Awareness Coalition, composed of appraisers, lenders, mortgage brokers and residents.
In the neighborhoods where the Atlanta scheme operated, values have plummeted. Many homes associated with the scheme are now in foreclosure. Some have sold for as low as 50% of what buyers in the fraud ring paid. "The banks are getting more and more aggressive in their pricing because they don't want to own these homes," says Warren Lovett, a real estate agent with Coldwell Banker in Atlanta.
Mr. Lovett has taken listings for about 60 foreclosed properties this year. He estimates that half of the foreclosures he's encountered are due to fraud
12/21/2007 01:14 PM by Bill
Wow, some striking similarities to some previous posts in that Wall Street Journal article. Worth reading for anyone who wants to invest in real estate but avoid manipulative transactions.
12/21/2007 06:05 PM by
For those in the know,
Is Atlas Marketing (the company involved with Dish Network) still in business, and does anyone have a contact number? I have heard rumors both ways.
12/27/2007 10:00 AM by
Here's some interesting reading. I'm sure just the first of quite a few of lawsuits that will be filed.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2007/11/29/WheelerOckham.pdf
01/02/2008 01:07 PM by Bill
Here's another similar (in some ways) legal filing, this time against a person/entity in Idaho soliciting money from real estate transactions. The proceeds of these transactions appear to have been sent to one Utah firm who sent them on to a second Utah firm for "investment".
http://www.mycollector.com/Breinholt%20Streamline%20VC.pdf
The next link accesses a State of Utah database for looking up a few of the details of business entities registered with the State of Utah. Not much info, but a little if you're interested in looking up the names of the Utah firms mentioned in the legal filing.
https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/index
01/02/2008 02:33 PM by Bob
Thanks for the update Bob and Bill.
The Attorney General of ID has got these assholes nailed to the wall. If you read the complaint she makes a big deal over Koerber's past fand current misdeeds. The kind of language she uses with regard to Koerber contemplates some action being taken against him(along w/ defendant Jon Doe companies)
The dillemna for Rick is that this thing of his was being run interstate. Which means that the Feds can't be too far off. How's that going to work out for him? That SOB should seriously consider relocating to a country without an extradition treaty or start stretching out with produce--because at this point he's running out of options.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for Rick because he has no remorse for his actions. Even to this day he waves his hands like some Kansas City fag "you don't have a contract with me" he says. This of course is not true for at least three reasons #1 LLCs and other entities are NEVER shields against intentional misconduct or criminal activity (hence the "alter ego" reference in the complaint; #2 There is privity of contract between investors and Founders Capital; and #3 Koerber had a legal obligation to vett his investors and the sources of their money. He knew damn well where the $ was coming from because he taught them for crying out loud.
About the Wheeler thing: it sounds like a similar to the Breinholt deal except the middle men were Wheeler and Sleater.
I'm quite positive in both cases some of the investor's money was syphoned off for various side projects and personal indulgences. It sounds like the standard fee for accepting a check and then writing another was 1% a month. Who knows if they doubled-dipped by taking a bit of the principal on the way?
One thing is becoming abundantly clear; all roads in this mess lead to one company and one person. I'm not suggesting others weren't equally responsible, or in some cases even worse, but the outcome is not going to be pretty--these sons a bitches are in very deep doo.
01/03/2008 12:52 AM by "I'll take 'Federal Charges' for $800 Alex"
If I read the Breinholt filing correctly the Attorney General for the State of Idaho is claiming:
* Breinholt helped investors get cash from real estate transactions, perhaps fraudulantly, cash which they gave to Breinholt in exchange for a promise of 1.5% to 2.0% interest per month to the investor on their investment.
* Breinholt sent the funds he collected to Annuit Coeptis, LLC (registered agent: Gabriel S Joseph) in return for a promise of around 3% interest per month to Breinholt.
* Annuit Coeptis, LLC sent the funds to Founders Capital, an investment company of Rick Korber, for a promise of a yet undislosed monthly interest payment (certainly above 3%, perhaps 4%).
* The filing does not disclose how Founders Capital invested their funds to generate the 4% (estimate) they were to pay Annuit Coeptis, LLC plus a profit for Founders Capital.
* This process was largely taught to those involved in this filing by some entity or entities of FranklinSquires business, owned by Rick Korber.
I don't see what all these "layers" between the investor and the investment were doing for their lofty recurring revenue. What were they producing for their pay? Anyone know how Founders Capital was investing all this money being collected on their behalf?
01/03/2008 10:02 AM by Daily Double
Rumor has it, Gunderson turned in "HIS" Bently recently. What a joke, it was a Capital Lease through Rex, he didn't own it. Had no problem posing in front of that ridiculous "purchase" for numerous photos on his website to show his incredible "success." Talk about shallow and greedy. Producer/Consumer Paradigms of Abundance/Scarcity all the crap he Rex, Koerber, et. al. preach is a farce. I hope they all end up getting their just due for the lies and falsehoods they present(ed) to their clients. They all deserve to be behind bars.
When they bend down for the soap they will get a whole new definition of Paradigms of Abundance...
http://garrettbgunderson.com/theman/album.html
http://www.theprosperityparadigm.com/aboutus.html
01/04/2008 09:32 AM by
Wow! What an impressive comment you just made. If it was capital leased in Rex's name, and Rex is declaring bankruptcy, what do you think would happen? It would be taken back by the bank?? Yep! You're a genius. This reflects poorly on Rex, not Garrett. Doesn't seem like Garrett would have any control over Rex's mistakes.
01/04/2008 12:11 PM by To the genius above...
To the guy above,
Your comment added nothing to discussion. If you would have been more involved you would see that Garrett has tried to distance himself from these guys, but obviously he is tied in closer than he had led on. So please don't bother posting if you're not adding to the discussion.
Has anyone looked at the free capitalist home page?? It has all their "owned" exotic cars and trucks on the front page. It is interesting that these guys say they're living the principles or whatever, but yet they drive these outrageously priced cars. You think any of the founding fathers would have been caught dead spending this much money on something??
01/04/2008 01:04 PM by Bill
Bill,
Don't read it if you don't care. I am just trying to show these people for who they are.
Founding fathers like whom?
I would love to know how your comment "adds" anything either. Give me a break.
01/04/2008 01:24 PM by
"trying to show these people for who they are" What are you talking about? I agree with you that Wheeler is just as bad as Koerber. Are you defending Garrett? No, Garrett can't be responsible for what Rex does.
01/04/2008 01:36 PM by Bill
ABSOLUTELY not defending Gunderson. I don't know if he is as dirty as Wheeler and Koreber.
Just think he is as arrogant as they come. Who freakin advertises himself with a ridiculously expensive car that is not even his? Garrett is not responsible for what Rex does never did I imply that. He is cocky and self righteous at least you can admit that. Look at some of his posts here, if you were on the stupid patronizing call you would have heard it.
01/04/2008 02:28 PM by
So what has Gunderson done to you personally for you to say the things you are saying? Because it seems all you can talk about is a car and his web page.
01/04/2008 02:52 PM by
What does it matter?
01/04/2008 03:51 PM by
Because if he hasn't done anything to you personally and you are just saying things to say them, then you are on the same level as what you are trying to make him out to be. I have a feeling seeing all you can talk about is a car and his webpage that he hasn't done anything to you and you are just taking your agression out on him.
The things you are saying about him I could see you saying about Rick and Wade because they have legitimately caused problems for people and it seems they have no remorse for their actions. As far as Gunderson goes, all I see people saying is things about his website, a car, and his boots. To me, those don't seem significant enough for you to say the things you are saying.
01/04/2008 04:29 PM by
It's quite interesting how people are willing to post RUMORS about Garrett. What about posting facts. So what if his web page has pictures of him and HIS Bently. It's His web page. Garrett is far from being cocky or self-righteous. I think more important things should be discussed here, besides Garrett's web page with him and his Bently.
01/04/2008 04:43 PM by
I completely agree with the above comment. Amazing how people are willing to defame people just to do it.
01/04/2008 04:53 PM by The Facts
So does he still have the car Mr. Fact?
01/04/2008 05:47 PM by
Gunderson has introduced A LOT of people (clients and others) to Wheeler, Koerber and Wade.
He has culpablilty for not doing the proper background checks on these crooks.
01/04/2008 05:53 PM by
Here's a fact. A friend of mine has been telling me how great Gunderson and his Freedom Fasttrack is. After finally cutting through all the hype (producer vs. consumer, create value for others, etc.) I finally got him to explain the investment to me. He has been used as a straw buyer in a real estate transaction. You know the rest. Sound familiar?
01/04/2008 05:54 PM by
Would you like to prove he owns the car or even still has it?
01/04/2008 05:54 PM by
I do not know Gunderson, but was introduced to Koerber and Wheeler by one of his mentees that happened to be my advisor. Too bad he didn't know what he was recommending.
Gunderson and his whole operation are a joke, they have "advised" people to go out and work whith Ockham and Franklin Squires over the years and lend their credit to others.
They referred to good credit scores as an "asset" that should be used to "be productive with" like buying Bentlys crashed airplanes and overpriced spec homes. Now those poeples credits are ruined from their "advice" so you tell me what a great advisor he is.
01/04/2008 05:59 PM by
Garrett is trying to distance himeself to cover his own ass. Plan and simple.
01/04/2008 06:04 PM by
this blog is barely readable with the abscence of "wrapping". i'm not sure but I think it started with the post about 17 posts up which begins:
3RD DISTRICT COURT - SALT LAKE SALT LAKE COUNT STATE OF UTAH
David, can you fix it?
01/04/2008 06:27 PM by
I heard Garrett on the radio once advocating that people liquidate their 401k to take "stewardship" over that money and that people like Suze Orman taught "lies". What a complete and total dumb ass. Oh another one of my favorites "you don't have to have high risks to get high returns". While in rare cases this can be true for certain types of investments, no responsible financial advisor would be teaching his clients this is the rule rather than the exception. My question to them was always this: If these investments are so lucritive and risk-free why are you paying out 3-5%/mo for capital? They always responded by saying I was "in scarcity", a consumer, or a socialist and a dupe to the lies of conventional wisdom. My personal favorite is when they proclaimed that sharing these great investments was out of "princple" because they liked helping people get out of the rat race.
If you could ACTUALLY make 3-5/% a month without significant risk you would be the richest individual in the history of mankind. You wouldn't need to sell people whole-life and charge them exhobinantly for classes ridiculous seminars with names like Curriculum for Wealth, Freedom FastTrack, and Prosperity Quest. What a sick joke. In their heart of hearts, these promotors know that they are snake oil salesmen. I hope they all get what's coming to them.
01/04/2008 06:40 PM by Mr. "true principles"
test
01/05/2008 05:05 AM by larry
I am absolutely dumbfounded, who in the world would give their life savings to somone under 30. It is boggling to me as a business owner in the Utah Valley that so many young BYU RM's are actually being taken seriously by anybody. Being from California where real business takes place, I am lost as to how these young punks are pulling the wool over anybodies eyes. Shame, shame! Blessed, chosen, "the only true church", come on! Hell, it's a fool that buys a $300,000.00 home for $2,000.000.00 from Ron Clarke, Ron Kitchen, etc... Too many "smart" mormons for me. Utah Valley is a smouldering hotbed of wrong doers, wake up people...the end is near!
01/06/2008 11:39 PM by Dumbfounded!
Dumb(founded): If you consider this a "Utah Valley" thing you need to expose yourself to some news sources beyond the Deseret News. Your attempt to make others appear narrow-minded does more to make you appear narrow-minded.
01/07/2008 11:12 AM by
You're right (No Name) I stand corrected... The only problem here is that there isn't a whole heck of a lot of others in Real Estate stealing in the name of the Lord. Showing up to church on Sunday and ripping off their neighbors on Monday, spewing buzz words and terms like prosperity paradigm, equity milling, human capital, prosperity vs. scarcity mindset, producers vs. consumers, 13 pillars of rhetorical mumbo jumbo and so on. Call me oldschool, but I prefer to get to work by 6 a.m. work til at least 6 p.m. serve my fellow man, work hard and get paid equitably for my labors. I also love beautiful things; homes, cars, clothes, vacations etc...but would never screw my customers to get them. Let's face it, this happens all over the place and has happened since the dawn of mankind, the difference here is that people have stopped thinking for themselves and have entrusted the likes of 25 to 40 year old, RM, BYU Marriott School grads, all in the name of being BLESSED! Capitalism Ain't FREE Anymore!!!
01/07/2008 01:30 PM by Dumbfounded
I agree, I just don't think that anyone should come away from your comments with the belief that anything
that has happened here was somehow original or unique to your county or your religious observations. A
scam is a scam, this one happened everywhere and the LDS faith was not nearly the only "affinity group"
utilized. The saddest part of this affair is that although the Real Estate cylce swung perhaps further than
ever before, the same cycle has been going on every decade or so for my entire life and will continue for,
well, for a long time. Maybe that's why so many young people got involved, they haven't lived long enough
to notice the cycles and weren't willing to believe us "old" guys urging them that a reconning was just
beyond their foreseeable future. It's incredible that with the pains and losses of the Internet Bubble still
burning fresh in our minds that so many were willing to jump into the Real Estate Bubble while denying that
the Bubble could exist. How many "new economies" will we have to endure before we become willing to live
in a real-world economy, like the one you describe with jobs instead of leverage, with active income instead
of the lazy entitlement of passive income, with transparency of purpose instead of blind faith in someone
who appears to have everything we want? That retorical question is one I wish we'd answer as a nation, not just as a community.
01/07/2008 02:00 PM by
Eloquent! That says it all.
01/07/2008 03:01 PM by Dumbfounded
Atlas Marketing was a legitimate company founded by Wade Sleater and Brandon Grover. The company thrived with Brandon paying attention to details and maintaining controls and Wade running the sales recruiting. When Brandon left to work on another business in 2006, Wade ran the business into the ground. Millions of dollars were wasted and hundreds of people were left holding the bag. People lent Atlas their credit cards to pay for equipment that was to be repaid by a reimbursement from DISH, but the money was diverted into the hundreds of other business ventures Wade was involved in. All of Wades companies co-mingled funds including Atlas Capital, Source XII, Atlas Ventures, Elite Construction?, etc.
Atlas Capital was formed by Wade Sleater and run by Kyle Nelson. They took money from people with the 3% per month copy cat learned from the Franklin guys. This money was lent to Atlas Marketing as well as used for other residential construction schemes that involved "investors" who had their names on the loans with the promise that Atlas would pay the interest and complete the home and sell it.
Wade had a ton of businessess and they all co-mingled funds. Atlas Capital took money from investors and did not complete the proper paperwork to meet SEC guidelines. He was working on setting up the correct paperwork with a company called Fountainhead Capital? I believe but I do not think it was completed before everything caved in.
In short, Atlas Marketing will inevitable be rolled into bankruptcy filed ultimately by Wade Sleater. It has payroll liabilities and taxes due. It also owes over $1MM to credit card holders and $2-3MM to private investors.
Atlas Capital ownes much more.
01/09/2008 02:00 AM by Long time coming
Wade, Wheeler, and the rest of them should go to jail. The above post is a great explanation of what kind of person this guy is. I don't know how his friends and family defend him with such blatant examples of what a crook and dishonest person he is.
I hold Wheeler accountable for choosing to be in business with him. He had to know that the Ponzi Scheme was alive and well and represented himself as a victim of Wade. Give me a break, he is no victim. He walked from all of his liablilities and left others holding the bag.
Every financial advisor is also guilty of at leat not doing the proper analysis before recommending this whole ridiculous web of crap to their clients. I hope all of them (Gunderson included) are expelled from the industry. If they hold FINRA licenses (Series 6, 7, 63, etc.), I would hope FINRA does their part to expel them from the advisory community. They give the industry a bad name.
01/09/2008 09:09 AM by
Stay away from noveau riche also they are full of it.
01/09/2008 11:09 AM by
Since Garrett was "capital leasing" the Bentley he was representing as his own in the photos on his website, does anyone know if he was renting the shoes as well?
01/09/2008 11:49 AM by Bankruptcy Fasttrack
Let's hope he didn't pay for those God awful things.
01/09/2008 01:19 PM by
has there been anything announced regarding an investigation by the state of utah into atlas capital?
01/09/2008 09:24 PM by
Long Time Coming,
Brandon Grover will not be adopted into sainthood just yet. Either you are close enough to the situation to actually know some parts of what is going on, or you are just regurgitating what you have been told. Either way you are sipping a little too much Grover Berry Punch. Brandon is just as responsible for the downfall of Atlas as Wade is. Any denial of such from Brandon is a rejection of the opportunity to learn from all of this.
If you really want to discuss the downfall of Atlas Marketing, why aren't you talking about Doug Robinson? Didn't he run the company for the last couple of years? What about his brother, Brad Robinson, the former IRS tax auditor, that was advising on all of these businesses?
The "Residential Construction Scheme" was a legitimate use of funds in legitimate properties, and using other people's credit on new construction spec homes is a normal way for contractors to finance their projects. Don't try to spin that into some sort of fraudulent thing...the wheels just came off before many of the projects could be completed.
In the end, any reasonable person would say that the group tried to do too much, believed their own hype, and bit off more than they could chew. Sure there was wasted money, but what startup doesn't waste some money--there are always mistakes that are made. They had too many things in startup mode at once--that is the biggest problem, and on top of that Atlas Marketing didn't perform half as well as expected. It wasn't dishonesty, fraud, or any other of the named above.
01/09/2008 09:57 PM by Long Time Coming BS
Longtime Coming BS, Horse....! What are you a brother, an ass-kissing friend or one of the Atlas guys yourself? Defending crooks is sheer stupidity. Stop now, please... What are you doing, waiting for their return so you can give 'em money, or assist them in taking somebody elses money or what? Using anothers credit card for any purpose is wrong, period! Sounds like you are yet another BYU Marriott "Business Plan" WINNER!!! Oh...btother!
01/09/2008 10:52 PM by Horse....!
Nope, just sticking with the facts. Not letting lies, rumors, emotions, and idiots dictate my opinions. Agreed on the credit card thing, though they had been doing it for years without much of a problem. But you really can't take away the responsibility of the credit card holder from that matter either. What do you know anyway Horse....!? How about making a contribution. Or is your hatred blinding you? Careful with hatred--As Yoda taught Luke, hatred and fear lead to the dark side.
01/10/2008 08:21 AM by Long Time Coming BS
I'm a lover not a fighter, I'm a helper not a hater and I never enter into emotion based behavior. I also agree with the comment about obligation on the part of the cardholder, that is really the point...no one is minding the shop anymore. The difference is at first glance, I knew better than to get involved with smart guys like Ron Clarke, Brad Kitchen, Ron Haycock, Wade Sleater, Garrett Gunderson, Claud Koerber, Gabe Joseph, Doug Robinson, Brandon Grover, Mitch Huhem or any of the Utah Valley/SLC cast of characters that have marketed themselves as Gods gift to building empires. Truth is as Dumbfounded so clearly stated, this is a hotbed of wrong doers. They are cocky, arrogant and LOUD! Integrity was never their strong suit and that is what we should all be looking for in potential partners in the quest for success, prosperity and abundance. May We All Be Truly Blessed With Light, Love And Legal Virtue!
01/10/2008 03:12 PM by Horse....!
Does anybody have any updated info on Founders Capital? Sorry to get off the subject of Atlas Capital.
01/10/2008 06:42 PM by
Yes, I just saw your money drive by... I think it's called a Spyker or something. Anyway, it was one damn nice car.
01/10/2008 11:04 PM by "Salesmanship Governs"
Your funny but I guess you dont know but thanks anyway. you sure it was the spyker not the ferrari or the jag or the or the oh ya he gave the ferrari away thats right, what a jerkoff claude is!!
01/11/2008 05:01 PM by
RE: State of Utah investigaation question above...
The Utah Division of Securities has an open investigation into Atlas Capital. Anyone with information or a complaint can contact the lead investigator, Dianna Parrish, at 801-530-6600 or email her at dparrish@utah.gov
You may also submit a formal complaint with the following form...
http://www.securities.utah.gov/complaint_general.html
01/11/2008 09:20 PM by concerned family member
To Long time Coming BS
While I agree that startups have problems this was not a start up problem at Atlas. It was either pure fraud or completely reckless. These guys "Wade and cronies" ran their business like something on a TV show, long on hype short on results. As far as Atlas Marketing not performing that is a bunch of horse sh.. It might not have been the Savior wade needed but it was the only thing in the little empire making money.
01/12/2008 11:00 PM by
To Long Time Coming BS:
You and a lot of other people seem to be confusing the issue. It may indicate many other faults but running an unsuccessful business is neither illegal or unethical. The real matter is not Atlas Marketing, but Atlas Capital. Because there you have an issue of illegal conduct (fraud, illegal investments, etc). Yes, there may have been lots of other bad behavior going on among others, but this problem (scores of people losing major money) is the result of a few people, doing very specific things, that resulted in harm to many others.
01/13/2008 12:01 AM by The Man Who Sold the World
Horse....!
Do you actually know all of the people you name?
01/13/2008 09:49 AM by Long Time Coming BS
To the post without a name at 11/12/2008 at 11:00pm,
Agreed on the hype and short on results...however the results had been there to support the hype up until this year, so what changed? Did Atlas Marketing come remotely close to acheiving its goals or projections? It was less than half...so you tell me who is full of horse...!
It was the savior that Wade and many others needed, and that is his fault for setting it all up to depend upon the one company. I see it over on the side of being reckless, that is why experience is valued in business.
01/13/2008 10:02 AM by Long Time Coming BS
To The Man Who Sold the World,
In regards to Atlas Capital, I don't know all of the legalities of such a venture nor their internal operations, but an on-the-surface, "was there intent to commit fraud?," test, to me results in a "no" answer.
I know that they were raising capital, as I had been approached to lend them money, for business growth and for real estate projects. I know they had/have many legit real estate projects in the works--all in different phases of construction--passes the basic fraud test. I also know that Wade was funding several businesses, I was told of them at one time, but I don't remember their names. There was a Dish Network sales/distribution company, telecommunications business, an online movie making curriculum for high school film classes in partnership with actual Hollywood producers, a golf destination resort club, etc.--well that fulfills the basic fraud test for the business uses of the funds. My opinion at the time I looked into it was that they had too many startups at once, making it a little too dependent upon certain things to work out within certain timelines for me to give very much money.
With all that said, I just don't see the INTENT to defraud. A lot of people lost money, and that is unfortunate, hopefully they can keep from becoming bitter so that they might learn from it. And hopefully when Wade is in a position, he can pay them back. The good news, is that I think Wade can do it. He has learned how to "make" money--he'll just do it smarter and better this time around. In fact, I would be more willing to loan him money now, due to the experience he has gained--provided he is more focused. People like him don't come around too often, and to have his level of success at such an early age...I wouldn't bet against him.
01/13/2008 10:44 AM by Partial Outsider
To Partial Outsider:
So your test for discovering fraud is to evaluate the offer "on-the-surface". By definition doesn't all fraud attempt to create an illusion of legitimacy? For example, when you were solicited to invest you mentioned real estate and misc business ventures. Do you think a person with a mind to commit fraud is really going to tell you to invest with him so he can divert your dollars into a mix of hare-brained businesses and personal property?
You also spoke about the matter of intent. Putting aside your apparent ability to discern personal intentions, let's look at it objectively. Say you run a business that is growing and needs capital. You decide to get it by paying 3-5% a month. Soon you have so much capital that you are starting up other businesses, paying your cronies outrageous salaries, providing lavish car stipends, and acting like a big shot--which brings in even more capital. At some point that 3-5% a month has to be paid with profits instead of new money. Few if any of your businesses are making money and if so not nearly enough to make the monthly nut. So what do you do? It appears that in this case they continued to accept money right up to the end. I don't know how you define intent, but at what point do the systematic actions of someone culminate to something more than just an accident. The same question too about fraud, at what point does someone's mismanagment of investor's dollars become so irresponsible and reckless that it constitutes fraud?
If someone takes out a home equity loan to invest $200k with me and I use 50% of it put in my "real estate ventures" (equity stripping), 10% to put my friend in an exotic car for a year, 10% to make payments on my personal residence, and 30% to lay roulette in Las Vegas. Have I committed fraud?
01/13/2008 01:01 PM by The Man Who Sold the World
Rather than all this conjecture on who intended to do what, why don't you read some of my posts here. They actually happened to someone and I truly believe he inteneded to commit fraud at the end of this whole shell game. Ask the contractors he hired to fix up "his" house with no intention of paying them. There is just a small example of intent that I know actually happened. Maybe I am naive, but I think all of them will get whats coming to them in the long run.
01/13/2008 03:43 PM by PooeSap
To the man who sold the world,
What some so quickly point to as fraud, can be easily explained by a variety of other factors--especially given the youth and inexperience of those involved. I am sure that there are several sides to the stories, and there is no way to determine what was going on inside the head of the person or persons making decisions as they were doing so.
Most people that are young and inexperienced that have a high degree of success early on fall suscepible to thinking that it can't ever end, and are so optimistic about every opportunity that comes along that they can't say no to the opportunities or to the people that they are working with. It is easier to say yes, and think, "well I have figured out how to make it work before so..." And in the end get themselves into trouble. Many of those with early successes want others around them to experience it as well, they are often some of the most giving people--people see this and take advantage. If this is what happened, it doesn't release Wade or anyone else from the accountability of the decisions that were made, but definately makes things a little more understandable.
I don't know most of what has transpired, but I do have enough experience to know that the "inexperience" scenario is much more likely to have happened than the fraud scenario. Additionally, for those that want any of the above to go to jail, based upon the little that you've heard--that is the worst of all possible scenarios, because then you'll never get your money back. If indeed the probablities play out the way that I suspect, then everyone stands the best chance of recovery. A productive Wade, is better for everyone, cause not many people are able to produce like that.
As to your question, it depends upon what was said to the person lending the money. There are plenty that believe that roulette is a good investment--the evidence is in the growing population of casinos.
01/13/2008 04:06 PM by Partial Outsider
Poor Old Sapp,
I have read your comments. I just think that your set of "facts" aren't the whole truth--never is, we have built in bias.
01/13/2008 04:43 PM by Partial Outsider
Poor Old Sapp,
Additionally, the contractors view of Wade's intent, your "belief", and your example of "intent that I know actually happened," is conjecture.
01/13/2008 04:49 PM by Partial Outsider
Partial Outsider:
1. If you take money from investors without properly registering the security with the State you have committed fraud--regardless of the truthfulness or outcome stemming from those investments.
2. You did not address my scenario i.e. At some point the people in charge new the ship was sinking, but they continued to borrow money from people. Care to comment on this behavior? How could this not be fraud by any definition?
3. What if some of the investor money was used to purchase luxury items like homes, jewelery, cars, and boats instead of being used 100% for purposes under which they were recived?
4. You make a lot of the age issue. How old is Wade? You make it sound as if he's some child. At what age does someone become accountable for their own behavior? Since when is youthful exuberance an excuse for any of this type of stuff? Does it make it any less wrong? Are thirty-somethings held to a different standard than the rest of us?
01/13/2008 06:26 PM by The Man Who Sold the World
Can anyone give any insight into what is going on with New Castle Holdings or Hill Erickson....are they going to start paying on the homes they purchased? OR are we all just screwed? I am one of the desperate homeowners who sold Hill-Erickson our home with the understanding that they would perform as per the contracted agreement. Is anyone else out there in the same position we are in? Can anyone help?
01/13/2008 09:07 PM by Really Frustrated...
Really Frustrated,
I would not be counting on anything from Koerber.
01/13/2008 09:36 PM by
To The Man Who Sold the World,
1. I can lend and borrow money as I please. I have done both without registering anything with the SEC. Not registering doesn't imply fraud. The SEC means nothing to me. I have lost and made money in fully regulated markets and in completly unregulated transactions. Honestly, I prefer the unregulated, as I feel I have more control.
2. Sometimes more money can right the sinking ship. When did they realize that the ship was sinking? Sometimes optimism overrides logic, sometimes the "opportunities" override the cashflow issues--back the the inexperience thing later.
3. That can be a problem. How do we know this was the case? I don't like to deal in rumor and gossip.
4. I don't know exactly how old Wade is exactly, but I would guess that he's still in his twenties. In business experience, he is a young guy. He hasn't been through a time like he is going through now, until now. Anyone who wants to make a big impact in this life has to go through these times in order to learn valuable lessons that serve them for the future. No excuses. One way or another people are held accountable. No different standards, just that I admit to not knowing all of the facts and therefore have no need to play the part of the Judge, Jury, and Executioner. I've got my own weakenesses to deal with.
All that I am saying, is that there are more plausible explanations for the situation than for it to be a clear cut case of fraud. I also know that, assuming there was no fraud, people will have a chance of getting their money back if they back off and let him make money.
01/13/2008 10:20 PM by Partial Outsider
Why do you say that? Do you know something or is it merely your opinion? I know several people who are also waiting and hoping to begin receiving payments.
01/13/2008 10:21 PM by
My question was addressed to the person who responded to "really frustrated" regarding New Castle holdings.
01/13/2008 10:23 PM by
Wade... I mean Partial Outsider, A Productive Wade is better for all of us? Not many of us are able to produce like that? You are so full of it I can smell "it" over here! Numerous people were hurt, that is wrong! Numerous people were lied to, that is wrong! I am appalled by your biased ignorance. The local LDS population runs around critisizing "Hollywood" for their immorality, yet this is what true immorality is! A few cocktails is not immoral, exiting a failing relationship is not immoral, a cup of "joe" isn't nearly as immoral as 6 Boo Koos, Red Bulls, or whatever energy drink you and your boys are drinking this week. Pull your head out, come clean and stop defending and justifying your (Wades) actions, what went down was plain and simply, WRONG! If you can't see the transparent "TRUTH", than you obviously do not understand the meaning of the three most vital words in business and in life... Integrity, Trust and Service! I pray that you rethink your juvinile comments and Let It Go!
01/13/2008 10:58 PM by ???
I say that because I know how Rick is dealing with his main line investors, and if he is giving them the shaft, I would not count on a timely mortgage payment being made.
He had them sign a non disclosure for the recision and the buyout is a fraction of what their invested principle is.
I wonder if his investors in Wyoming had to sign a non disclosure when he supposedly payed them off "with interest"
01/14/2008 06:21 AM by Principles Govern
Exactly,
Wade's investors need to be patient while going through their bankruptcies and not try to press charges for fraud, so that he can make a comeback and "produce" their invested principle.
How about people come forward and press charges so these guys do time in jail instead of repeating the whole cycle over again.
01/14/2008 06:25 AM by Principles Govern
???,
I'm not Wade, I hardly know him, which is why I am partially an outsider. Just speaking from experience, with a level head, and am not quite so judgemental.
Umm, compare the posts again and ask yourself who looks juvenile. Not defending, justifying, or claiming to know all the facts. I wish others on here would admit to not knowing all of the facts...finding others who feel the same as you doesn't make it fact or the whole story.
01/14/2008 08:42 AM by Partial Outsider
Principles Govern,
If ALL of the facts come out and warrant what you say, then so be it. The probabilities just aren't in your favor. Hopefully the venting on the blog helps you out in some way.
01/14/2008 08:47 AM by
To Partial Outsider:
"...finding others who feel the same as you doesn't make it fact or the whole story."
Try convincing the Like Minded Capitalist Producers of that. Lemmings.
01/14/2008 09:01 AM by
Groupthink works both ways.
01/14/2008 09:07 AM by Partial Outsider
Partial Outsider,
If you are collecting investments and backing them as Atlas Capital did, YOU ARE COMMITTING FRAUD. That is way Wade and maybe a couple others are probably going to Prison.
Wade is 30 years old (or close to). The way the money was coming in was through the "equity milling" crap. But guess what, when all the 100% loans and stated loans went away...uh-oh, guess what happened. No more money was coming to PAY OFF the current investors. You asked the question, when did the ship start sinking. I'll tell you that the ship was almost always sinking for the last 10 months. People freaking out, sweating bullets, avoiding Wade because all of his payments to people were due and guess what, they didn't have any "new monies" coming. Like I said above. Once the "Mortgage Meltdown" started, there were not any programs available for these guys to get loans. All the Stated 2nds went away, and no one was lending even close to 100%, especially on Jumbo Mortgages, which all of these were.
Yes, Atlas Marketing was a cash cow, but do some research. Atlas Marketing was/is not ver popular around the country. Certain business practices were taking place that kind of stinks like Atlas.
Look at all these Enginuity Freaks. Oh, let me show you how to become a producer. Or in other words, Here, let me sell you some whole-term life insurance, then you can borrower against it and invest it with another group that I know. Sound good doesn't it? Or better yet, let me recommend you to another guy I know who's initials are GG. Just pay a few thousand dollars for your personal financial planner. Or maybe you can buy one of my books. You know, the one that talks about killing the pig, or the sheep, or some other farm animal.
01/14/2008 01:07 PM by Bill
Partial Outsider, nice try...but I'm not biting. The kind of producers/leaders we need are people like Bono, Will Smith, Oprah, James Arthur Ray and if we must go young and local, Brandt Anderson. What we do not need are arrogance and self-servers. A $600,000.00 Porsche GT driven by the guy managing my money is not a prudent investment strategy. A nice ride, sure, but flagrant misuse of money, HELL NO! If my housekeeper made more money than I do, I would definately be in the wrong business, it is that simple. Youth, brillance, charisma...the upper eschelon of the LDS church is chock full of these types right? I don't think so, and for good reason...it is called seasoning! May the light of good fortune shine on us all!
01/14/2008 01:27 PM by ???
Bill,
If you check out the free capitalist page, Rick has posted a blog that describes how he has NEVER reccomended that anyone invest their home equity or 401k.
This is the word game that Rick plays. No, he probably hasn't reccomended (in public) that anyone do it, he doesn't have to when all of his cronies were running around doing just that, and he didn't seem to have a problem with it - while it was funneling hardmoney into Founders Capital.
Gabe Joseph, had a feature in their Real Estate magazine that talked about "equity milling" and when asked about milling and investing home equity into a fund his response was "why wouldn't you put your home equity to work"
Then there is the FS student instructor Stephen Anderson that bragged to me about how he lived in a million dollar house that "paid for itself"
In Rick's world it only counts if he says it directly. So to get around it he just teaches it to others, which isn't hard when you're on the radio talking about milling automobiles, and how he pays 60% for money loaned to him.
01/14/2008 02:12 PM by Principles Govern
???,
You don't even make any sense. READ my posts and you will see I didn't ask you to bite on anything...other than not assuming things based upon rumor and gossip.
01/14/2008 06:07 PM by Partial Outsider
Bill,
Just because you capitalize something doesn't make it true. I am going to hazard a guess that you have very little to zero first hand knowledge of the situation. What they were doing may have been fraud, but I doubt it.
Regarding Atlas, try running that large of a business, with that many salesmen and installers, that sells to the end user and not have complaints.
I don't know anything about the "Enginuity Freaks," other than what I have heard, so I'll refrain from comment.
01/14/2008 07:51 PM by Partial Outsider
???,
I forgot to thank you for so eloquently making my point about youth and inexperience. If Wade is learning from this, he is getting his "seasoning" right now, if not...
01/14/2008 07:56 PM by Partial Outsider
???,
There are few people that are able to build as big of a business as Atlas Marketing in a lifetime, let alone doing it in their twenties. Yes, a productive Wade is in everyone's best interest, as long as my assumption that most of the "facts" on the blog are from people that are simply relaying what they were told by some guy in the "know" is correct. He'll be able to do it again, but better and will build it to last. I've seen it before, many times with people like him.
01/14/2008 08:04 PM by Partial Outsider
Partial Outsider:
You state that "He'll be able to do it again, but better"
I think you're only half right.
01/14/2008 08:19 PM by
To Partial Outsider:
If Wade has so much potential for productivity why is everything he's been associated with tits up? Why didn't Productive Wade produce when he had a chance? What's is your take on the events that led up to his sudden fall from production? What's keeping him from producing now? (you can answer the questions by the way it won't kill you.)
Anyone who knows Wade, knows that he is very bold and knew how to sell. But he is not, nor has he ever been a good businessman. Atlas Marketing, the "cash cow", was not the performer people had it made out to be. That is why he had to use hard money, and that is how he financed its expansion and dug himself deeper by marginalizing his already modest profit margin. All of the rest of the businesses in Wade's 'network' were huge losers.
So where's the beef? You have a guy who did a start-up, managed it foolishly, expanded it with smoke and mirrors money tricks, and ran it straight into the ground, all within 5 years. Is this the same Productive Wade, or are we talking about different people.
I suppose I'd have a little more compasion for him if he didn't take so many others down with him. I don't think he intentionally set out to hurt anyone, but the end result was that he did. I bet that Wade will be okay getting himself back on his feet, but there is no way he's going to be able to pay back all the people involved in this. Once you've proven yourself to be untrustworthy there isn't much you can do in the business world.
01/14/2008 10:35 PM by Luchedoro
How about a compromise? 'Partial Insider' can invest w/ Wade on the rebound, and, in turn, Wade could use the investment to pay back the previous investors.
The 'half right' comment above is spot on. :)
01/14/2008 10:52 PM by concerned family member
On a more practical note - what would be the best way to start collecting money from NewCastle Holdings (Rick) - money that they owe to about 70 "investors" - myself included? Rick tried to by some time by making one intermidiate payment (after missing 2 months), signed promissory note for these missed payments and then disappeared again - I am guessing now for good. The "funny" part is that he still is playing the reruns of his old shows where he discusses the problems like deception (=bad) which car is better - his mazzeratti or his buggatti (=good) and how he made 1 mln dollars and checked his ballance every morning (=the best)
01/14/2008 11:43 PM by Preferred Buyer
Partial outsider is not Wade, its either his dad or one of his current employees. Partial Outsider, quit covering for all the mistakes. Its OK to say that Waht he did was wrong and he should pay for it. Optimism is fine but as our friend Mr Clinton would say, your perspective of the past is "all a fairytale!". Unfortunately, I know all the facts and with %110 assurety I can tell you there was intent to commit fraud, blatant lies and deceit were used for the obtaining of more money and that is illegal. To everyone else who talks like they know what has happened if you dont have your facts straight dont go and blow smoke. things are complicated enough without you going and blowing things out of porportion. People "invested" money with Wade and should have known not to invest anything they could not lose. I feel for their loss and pray they will get their money back, I wouldnt count on it though. Lets let the State sort it out huh guys? Just because your pissed or hurt doesnt mean you need to wish harm on anyone else. Its not gonna help you any! The best outcome truly is that Wade learned his lesson and keeps to his word on paying everyone back. We'll see.
01/15/2008 01:17 AM by Hawaiian Rider
"A man's got to know his limitations." Harry Callahan
These folks were convinced they had none.
01/15/2008 08:47 AM by
Half of the harm that is done in this world
Is due to people who want to feel important
They don't mean to do harm - but the harm does not interest them
Or they do not see it, or they justify it
Because they are absorbed in the endless struggle
To think well of themselves
-- T S Eliot, The Cocktail Party
01/15/2008 08:54 AM by TS Eliot
Has anyone tried collection agencies? I think I am about ready to try it. If anyrthing else - I'll drive NewCastle to the chapter 7. Can anybody recommend one to me? Thank you in advance.
01/15/2008 11:05 AM by Preferred Buyer
Preferred Buyer,
Depends on your contract with them. Do you have any collateral built into the contract? Do you have terms that allow you to escalate your rights in the event of non-payment on their part? It's tough to recommend any course of action in the abscence of knowing what you signed, but if I were you I'd start by investing a few hundred dollars in an attorney's advice. Have him/her review all of your documentation, write down everything you remember about the sales process and the investment process in advance (every name and promise and assurances and sales pitch and meeting and testimonial), get your receipts together and deposit slips and stuff, then ask a decent real estate attorney to review it all with you and interpret your options. What you can personally do to get your money back will largely depend on the contract you signed. Whether you were dealt with fraudulantly will go beyond the mere contract itself and have more to do with how you were sold and by whom and what they told you - you may want to check with the State Regulators on that type of issue. Their contact info is in this blog about a dozen times. You may want to open a channel with an attorney and another with the State in deciding what action to take.
So what's your story?
01/15/2008 12:03 PM by
To Partial Outsider; First off, I'm assuming you're not even close to being a partial outsider, you were probably on Wade's payroll at one point. Secondly, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I have FIRST hand knowledge. Oh wait, I forgot, capitalizing doesn't make it true. Okay, I have first hand knowledge of what they were doing, how they were obtaining their money, how much money Wade owed is "cronies", who was running what. So don't tell me that I don't know anything. How much does Wade owe you? And how long have you been kissing his arse? Give me a break. Take your onw advice and stop talking about stuff you don't know about.
01/15/2008 03:47 PM by Bill
Does anyone know what rock that cowering pussy Wade Sleater is hiding under? If he had any intention of paying anyone back, then why the hell is he hiding from everyone? Does anyone know where he is staying? Is there an address? Is he even in Utah still?
01/15/2008 03:48 PM by
My story is probably pretty typical - listened to the radio, got involved with franklin squires, signed up with their "preferred buyer program", bought the property (out of state - very smart!) - no money out of pocket, signed the lease with the option to buy on self-financing basis with NewCastle, got paid option consideration fee (~3.5% of the house purchase price) and received timely monthly payments for 3 months. In july, the payment was late and in august it stopped. I continued payments on my own until october - when rick and co. tried to fix the situation, make one monthly payment and signed promissory note to repay 2 missing payments. After that - no more payments, got couple phone calls in november from rick's people saying that there was little they can do - waiting for rick...
So, I've got property in the different state that is "upside down' - own 100K more than I can sell it for, mortgage payment that I cannot afford w/o renters, unsecured promissory note and 3 missed mortgage payments from NewCastle and a lot of hassle. They did not manage to excercise their option - and according to the lease agreement (which is pretty much standard REPC) they have already forfeited their right to exercise anything as well as option consideration that they paid me upfront.
Generally, not the worst-case scenario. I at least have property (even though it's upside-down.) From what I know - there are 70 people in the same position as me (minus 3-5 people from rick inner circle - e.g. gabe, etc.) It looks like attempt to make up in october was just buying time -kind of action with no real plan on fixing it. I know they are trying to sell some properties that might have had some equity - but it does not seem to be working in the current conditions. in october, rick insisted that the newcastle was the only franklin squires co that was in trouble and proudly sang praises to the 4.5 year history of successfully running this business. Looking back i would not believe anything the man says. He seems to be so full of himself that started believeing in his own lies. his radio re-runs annoy the crap out of me - and you wonder why capitalism gets a bad rap.
01/15/2008 04:03 PM by Preferred Buyer
Preferred Buyer; Just wondering who you might have purchased the property with? Meaning, Mortgage Company, Loan Officer, etc...
01/15/2008 04:29 PM by Bill
Wow. Preferred Buyer you are not alone. I know of several people in the same boat as you..same story. The only difference is that they bought a house in Utah, the same state that they live in. They don't know what to do, because they can't negotiate a sale and/or short sale, due to not being on title and the contract that they have with New Castle. It sucks. Others that just invested money in Founders are screwed as well, they haven't seen a interest payment since June.
01/15/2008 04:35 PM by blue
Thanks for the insights, Preferred Buyer. I think I see what your part of the transaction looks like and where you stand. Any idea what NewCastle's transactions looked like? Did they manage to "mill" a chunck of $ out of it along the way? Is the property upside-down because the market dropped or because the value was manipulated at your purchase so that "investable funds" could be extracted from the transaction?
Best of luck to you getting out of this.
01/15/2008 04:40 PM by
Thanks for the words of encouragement. The purchase happened with the loan officers preapproved by the franklin squires. The process worked like this: hill ericson (another fs co.) - using the network of "bird dogs" - sales reps - who are looking for the properties with significant amount of equity - bought the properties most of the time using cash (from founders capital.) At the same time "fs university" had several preferred buyers lined up to buy these properties using traditional financing (preferred buyer was a person who had a decent credit score and who was willing to use his/her own credit in exchange for the option consideration fee (3%-5% of the sale price to the buyer.) The sale price was supposed to be just the market price and this worked great in the market with great price appreciation.
Once the sale happened - hill ericson got their profit from buying low (on cash) and selling high to the preferred buyer. This stripped equity from what I understand - went back to the founders capital to pay those 3-5% a month. According to the model the preferred buyer then immediately signs the agreement with newcastle (in most cases newcastle already had similar agreement with hill erickson) to lease the property back to newcastle with option to buy on a self-financing basis. new castle promised to pay preferred buyer rent that slightly exceeded the mortgage payment that preferred buyer had to make to the bank.
Ideally, newcastle would excercise the option to buy using AITD, get the title (somehow skip the due-on-sale clause) and used all the tax write-offs during the lease period (5 years.) The idea was that at the end of the 5 year period - the property would be valued higher than it was when preferred buyer bought it from hill erickson so newcastle would pay off the lease and then turn around and sell it again - now using 21 day sale technique. Throughout the duration of the lease - the payments to preferred buyer (again ideally) would be made from two sources: the high percent return from the stripped equity - placed to the founders capital and rent payment from the real people who new castle would turn a round and re-rent the house during the lease period.
Sounds like great plan, right? The problem is (now looking back to this - I realized - but unfortunately too late) that there were 3 major assumptions that make this system (equity mill) work: rising property prices, preferred buyer's ability to borrow 100% LTV and availability of the fund to park strippped equity at 3%-5 % a month. Besides, there were almost never the the tenants on these properties. rick actually gave away some of them to the needy people (or at least this is how it was presented to the public) but mostly newcastle failed to rent it to the other people. I am speculating - it was too much hassle plus why do this when you can get all the money from the founders.
This is in a nut shell how the "equity mill" worked (of course this my version of understanding it.)
01/15/2008 07:17 PM by Preferred Buyer
As far as price manipulation - i did not see one in my case until the bank that i was financing through - asked to perform alternative appraisal and the property lost 10%, just like that! As it turns out to be (after i finally talk to the RE professionals in that state) - this reduced priced tag was still another 10% higher than it should be at that time. This is a good illustration how banks went along with all this hyped up prices.
Since my purchase - the prices were stagnant over there (I was told they had been stagnant for awile even before I bought the house.) I was also interested to get the higher price since i would have gotten higher option consideration so my upside-down is result of ... (you'll figure this one out.) as always - it's greed and fear.
I do not blame anybody else but myself for all that happened. I knew most of risks but again hoped that everything will be allright plus i would have the house as a collateral. So here I have it - very expensive education...
01/15/2008 07:26 PM by Preferred Buyer
The last observation - it appears this whole scheme would only work with new properties to enter the pipeline to provide the basis for on-going payments to the property already accuired. Therefore they used new investments to pay of the existing ones - classic definition of the Ponzi scheme - how i couldn't see it then?
01/15/2008 07:35 PM by Preferred Buyer
So has anyone talked with representatives from New Castle Holdings lately? Better yet, has ANYONE received a payment since October? I sold my property to them in September on a seller financed note, which all in all cost me nearly $6,000....and I have emails from Mary Horvath/Applegate stating that the company had not defaulted on any property - ever. I did as much research as I could prior to selling my home to them on a seller financed note...there was NOTHING that I found on the internet to indicate this was a scam....I am hoping to locate others that are in the same position as me...so maybe we can join forces to deal with this problem. PLEASE IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT NEW CASTLE HOLDINGS OR HILL-ERICKSON WOULD YOU PLEASE LET ME KNOW.
Thanks so much for any help you can give.
01/15/2008 10:30 PM by Really Frustrated
Really Frustrated,
I gather that investors are not being paid, are you also saying that you can't get a hold of these companies? Are they out of business and gone or just not returning your calls or what? Perhaps you could hook up w/ a few others in your same/similar situation (several on this site) and hire a shared attorney to give you all a legal interpretation of your contracts and to serve notice to NewCastle that you will be dealt with professionally or you will take legal action -- if your contracts will support such action. And for goodness sake, call the State Securities folks so they can look at the facts and decide if anything illegal has taken place.
01/15/2008 10:56 PM by
Really Frustrated:
You may try this blog: http://fraud-forum.blogspot.com/
There has been very little traffic on it, but it looks like it may be a useful place to get people together
who are in the same situation. Good luck.
01/15/2008 11:14 PM by
To Partial Outsider:
This guy wade definaletly committed fraud. I can live with the idea that he had good intentions in the beginning but after the ship started sinking he continued to borrow funds knowing that he could not repay per the terms of his agreements. So at what point is fraud committed? I say at the point where he does not use the funds for the purpose they were intended for. I had invested a significant amount of money with Wade, although indirectly, however I knew exactly what it was to be used for. I am not sure it was ever applied to the intended investment. from what I have been told he was desperate, robbing peter to pay paul and towards the end intentionally deceiving people to get their cash. I have heard other stories and examples of some of the crap this guy has pulled (which is not just fraud but unbeleivably bad ethics) however although it comes from very good sources I will not elaborate since it is second hand information. I do have first hand knowledge of my situation and believe me this guy is about as bad as it gets. I am not willing to give him an opportunity to continue to "produce" so that he can pay people back because he has already proven that he has no morals or ethics and will screw anyone to make himself look good and the chances of him now somehow having a change of heart and all of the sudden getting some morals to pay people back is not going to happen. I strongly feel he will go to prison if half the stuff I have heard is true and I hope he does. As far as getting paid back, his trustee can handle that while he is in prison of course after he files his personal bankruptcy which he will be forced to do. To whoever asked where he is: from what I was told he is holed up living in a basement of a friends/relatives house in Utah.
01/16/2008 11:23 PM by Larry
State of Utah Securities Division Press Release: Order to Show Cause
Highland Man Accused of Fraud in the Sale of $11 Million in Real Estate Notes. Investors were promised 3-4% per month; solicitors earned ½ to 1% per month...
Mentioned in Press Release: Hunters Capital, Inc., Paul L. Bouchard, Dale Parkes, Jared Hone, Jerry Martin, Chris Horne, Chanse Carlson, Rich Rusick, Greg Warburton, Joel Scheer, Israel Curtis, & Rachelle Taylor.
Also mention of Founders Capital being the final destination for the funds raised. Hearing to be heald on February 13th. Who wants to be in charge of attending and posting notes from the hearing?
Read the entire release at the Securities Division web site:
Press Release Link (one page brief): http://www.securities.utah.gov/press/hunters.pdf
Order to Show Cause Link(24 page legal order, long document but worth the read): http://www.securities.utah.gov/dockets/07009201.pdf
Interesting footnote on page 4 may answer some entity pedigree questions from this blog. "Founders Capital, LLC is a Utah County company whose sole manager is Hill Erickson, LLC. Hill Erickson, LLC's sole manager is CRK Central Management, LLC. CRK Central Management's sole member is Franklin Squires Investments, LLC. Franklin Squires Investments, LLC is not a registered entity with the Utah Division of Corporations." Second footnote, same page reads: "According to the FranklinSquires website (http://franklinsquires.com/index.php), visited October 1, 2007, ‘Franklin Squires' refers to the FranklinSquires Companies, LLC, a ‘private capital and business consulting firm.' FranklinSquires Companies, LLC is a Utah County company, and Rick Koerber is the owner of FranklinSquires Investments, LLC, ‘a partner in the FranklinSquires Companies, LLC.'"
01/18/2008 01:57 PM by melba
With all of the finger pointing and accusations floating around on this message board let me ask a question that comes to my mind. The individuals sited for these investment schemes certainly sought legal counsel from an attorney that most likely assured them the business activities planned were all above the law and legal in every way. With that advise the individual sets up his business operation and begins.
If indeed the business activities are found to be illegal in any way why is the lawyer not at fault? the lawyer provides bad legal advice and then draws huge fees defending the client that is in trouble for following his advice. I think if there was wrongdoing and restitution is required the victims should have access to the lawyers assets as well.
01/18/2008 02:25 PM by MusicMan99
MusicMan99,
You are correct that the advisors may deserve some blame, and if that's the case you can rest assured it will come their way eventually. Usually the last lawsuit by investors is pointed towards the attorneys who advised the perps incorreclty and the accountants who falsely audited them. However, your judgements seem premature at this point as I can't find any evidence that these entities/individuals were hiring external audits for their books (and they should have given the numbers they seem to have been doing) and their use of attorneys was probably lean and non-specific in nature and probably backward-focused after decisions were made by the business owners. For example, in the Securities Division Order, above, the accused told one of the investors that rather than sending his funds to the investment firm he had unilaterally chosen to forward the funds to another investor(s) who wanted out instead, assuming that the new investor now was credited with the old investors investment - I can't see any attorney stamping her approval on that decision as it is the very definition of a Ponzi scheme (using new investors to pay off old investors.) Let's face facts, it sounds like he know the money could not be liquidated for the investors looking to get out so he took on new investors to create artificial liquidity without telling the investors - this is indefensible. If that really happened the guy who did it might as well just concede defeat and move on with his life because he's cooked. He also (according to the Order) told people that their investment would be used partly as operating funds for his mortgage company and partly sent to the investment company, again this kind of comingling of funds would send shudders down the spine of any self-respecting attorney and I doubt you'll find one that told him it was OK to do. I can't imagine that an attorney advised these folks to take millions of dollars and skip any written arrangement in favor of verbal agreements either. I gotta think that the bulk of the indiscretions will come down on the heads of those who raised the money, not the attorneys. There may be some blame laid at counsel's feet in the end, but I doubt it will be in the way you describe - and it will be a couple of years before the investors get organized enough to put forward such a lawsuit.
With all that said, who really knows what happened or what will happen? I certainly don't and I don't intend to sound judgemental. I loosely followed another case brought by the Utah Securities Division against a local broker dealer about a year ago that they've now dropped and apologized publicly for bringing in the first place. Unless people start pleading out and providing evidence like Dave Fox did in a slightly similar high-visibility case, and others like it will be years in the making if they're made at all.
01/18/2008 03:30 PM by melba
Music Man:
Lawyers can be sued for malpractice if what they did hurt their clients. But a lawyer's advice on a matter has no official legal standing. If they tell you something is legal and it turns out not to be, their only liability is to the harm that it caused that particular client, and even then it has to be shown that lawyer's advice was somehow irresponsible--not just incorrect.
There are really only two sources you can rely on for the interpretation of regulations and laws. The first being current high court rullings. Second, officials (not cops) are in charge of enforcing the particular area in question.
In the Hunter's Capital situation (and probably some of the others referenced on this site) they did not register their company with the Utah securities office. This is a requirement for anybody doing what they were doing. That leads to a conclusion that the legality of this "capital company" was never submitted to the securities division. If they looked at enforcement actions they would quickly see that the courts did not regard underground unregistered securities as a "gray area" of the law.
Is it possible a lawyer guided the to do all this stuff? Sure, it's possible. Is it probable? No. As low as I regard lawyers there even some things that even they won't do. It doesn't seem believable that a lawyer would get wrapped up in anything that was so clearly illegal and so certain to fail.
01/18/2008 03:55 PM by Able
Hey Rick, do you feel that noose tightening?
01/18/2008 07:58 PM by he he he
Really Frustrated:
I managed to get a hold of rick's assistant who even returned my call and email but did let me know that she was working on my problem (with NewCastle Holdings - $25K in back payments) and would give me a buzz when she finds out something new (from rick.) I'm for sure not gonna hold my breath. I've sent notice of default to them and i am about to change the locks on a property and rent it out for whatever i can get.
01/18/2008 08:18 PM by Preferred Buyer
I think it is Unconscionable that Wade Sleater took his Grandmother for her last $200.000. Wade comes from a family that lived off others. His father never really worked and lived off his wife's parents. It is really sad when you see individuals that have no conscious. How can you take the money from your Grandmother Wade when you knew your company was going under.
Wade, I hope they get you in federal prison ASAP.
01/19/2008 09:38 PM by Wicket
Hopefully it won't be white collar resort prison, it will be Federal "pound me in the ass" Prison.
01/20/2008 05:20 PM by Black Box
Wow - It has been several weeks since I last looked at this page....and I AM AMAZED AT THE IGNORANCE THAT CONTINUES TO BE REPRESENTED HERE.
There are a handful of people mentioned above that I fully believe to be total scam-artists, but I will admit that I have only been an outside observer...knew some players...didn't have any money to loose - or else I probably would have because things sounded pretty good. To be honest - I still think some things sound good, and I think that there is a lot of good teachings/philosophy that some of these people have shared. Certainly there will be some who learn from this and come back stronger.
Look at the nation/world - look at the sub-prime action and all the banks that are going under....ALL of these things are similar and connected. Had the market not taken the turns it has taken - I don't think that this forum would exist and I think the majority of the negative posters here would have as much "invested" with these people as they could possibly scrape up.
The thing that I find most humorous is that none of these people are in jail or even charged with anything - yet they have been convicted and executed here!! LOL - please stop the ignorance. If everything is so cut & dry and all of these people have committed all these "crimes" where are the indictments, charges or whatever? They are all learning some tough lessons - as are most of us with other "investments" we have going on. Anyone have a 401k here? Mine is tanking and there is nothing I can do about it but I put the money there and there is no one for me to blame but me.
Can this forum be over now? Please? No one post another news article about Hunters, no one bring up Garrett's website (I like him by the way....go ahead and mock me all you want), no one ask if Wade is ion town..... NONE of it is new and only ignorant fools reply. There is nothing left here unless there is some actual news with FACTS or legal action that takes place. Our whole financial system is a mess - and these people are just another example and even victims (yep I said it!) of how things are broken. It is about time that I can't walk into any bank or credit union and get a ridiculous loan that I could never pay for....up until about June of last year I think I could have sunk as deep as I wanted to into debt and the banks would have been happy to give it to me. We are all getting a wake-up call!!!! No bail-outs needed!!! Just let us all learn and move-on!!!
01/20/2008 11:47 PM by Return of guy who knows everything
Rather than address all the self-serving BS and contradictions in your post, I just want to note that your presence here and the message that you send is proof positive that not only has something gone terribly wrong, but those who did the wrong are now trying to cover it up and discourage open dialogue between those who they hurt.
How can you defend these ass clowns? The real shit is going to come out and when it does the stuff that people will find out will make this pale in comparison. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the financial/mortgage markets, and everything to do with greed, dishonesty, immorality and yes even crime. So please STFU you don't know a thing.
01/21/2008 12:40 AM by another rerun from the guy who doesn't know anything
haha - the entire condition we are facing with financial/mortgage markets is exactly the same greed, dishonesty, immorality and even crime! This is just one other example of it, as evidenced by the multiple UNRELATED but similar cases all over the place.
Misrepresenting or embellishing information to qualify someone for a mortgage or any other loan is a daily occurrence that is EXACTLY the same as these people inflating house values and pulling out equity to invest elsewhere. Who does it hurt right? We are seeing who it hurts - many many many people.
Of course people are trying to distance themselves and probably even cover up their involvement, but I don't think there are many people looking at this forum that have much to cover up - other than embarassment for being so naive; which they attempt to do by trashing every name they can think of, even those who they had never met or had anything to do with.
I will STFU now, and let the ignorant have their forum back.
01/21/2008 01:08 AM by Return of guy who knows everything
TO RETURN OF GUY WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING:
Your ignorance is only superceded by your naivety! Did you really in all seriousness just say that because there have been no indictments or arrest that they didnt do anything wrong? You really need to wake up buddy! They just barely started the investigations! Do you have any idea how long an investigation of this magnitude will take? A year and a half at a minimum. You wont be seeing any indictments until at least the middle or end of this next summer. If your basis for them not having done anything wrong is them not being arrested yet you really need to wake up. Let me tell you as someone who now knows with 110% assurety that there was illegal activity taking place that you dont have the damndest clue what you are talking about. You need to take your all knowing self righteous attitude and do as you said you would and please dont post anything else, at least until you have woken up or grown up!
01/21/2008 02:41 AM by Grow up or wake up Mr. guy who knows everything (about nothing)
Anyone (esp. The Guy Who Knos Everything) want to respond to this?
Where is Gabe?
It appears Rick's Invisible Hand is having cash flow problems too.
01/21/2008 03:11 PM by Just Curious
Maybe they're looking to raise some capital to pay some of their investors.
http://freecapitalist.com/events.php?action=show_info&event_id=4
01/21/2008 06:41 PM by Bill
Wicket:
Hmm. If you know Wade's family, then maybe we know each other (since I was in their ward growing up). And your accusations are below the belt, if you will. Don't blame Wade's unethical, illegal business practices on his family and especially not his dad. I don't know Wade's intentions--I don't really know Wade. But I know his family. I know his parents. And--as you must know--they are wonderful people (not greedy, not selfish, but funny, kind and generous). It's not cool to smear somebody's family. Whatever Wade's intentions were (and I restate that I do not claim to have any idea of his intentions) I can assure you that his parents' intentions were good.
01/21/2008 06:47 PM by Trying to stay out of it
Does anybody know anything about this guy Rex Wheeler and the Ockham Group (Utah based) and his equity milling schemes? His name has been mentioned a couple of times in this blog. I am curious to know if his intentions were bad from the beginning or if he went bad at the end when the ship was sinking. I know he was seeking money from investors and had given it to Sleater, which of course it is now gone. I am curious about the connection between the two. Does anyone know if they had multiple business ventures together? I appreciate any info.
01/22/2008 01:15 AM by Game On
TO GUY WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING
Is that you Wade? You little sack of shit. If it's not you, then I'm sure it's another one of your loser followers who also has some real bad shit coming his way. You say I can't ask if Wade is in town? I suppose you don't think it's any of my business. Is that it or are you just afraid that someone will actually find out where you are. As far as I'm concerned, Wade Sleater is a dead man walking. He has stolen a lot of my money, and I intend to get it back. If he doesn't come out of hiding really soon and attempt to work this out, he's going to have a really bad day when I finally catch up to him.
If anyone has any information on where this coward is hiding, please post it immediately.
01/22/2008 03:09 AM by MAD AS HELL
From what I understand he is holed up like a rat in his brother-in-laws house/basement. I have no idea where that is but I am sure if someone was intentional enough they could find out.
01/22/2008 12:09 PM by anonymous
Instead of getting pissed off and going after him with a fist (which will accomplish nothing) How about getting involved by rallying the troops, documenting everything and presenting it to the government so they have the FACTS necessary to put him behind bars for a long time.
01/22/2008 02:51 PM by Black Box
Mad as Hell,
He's out and about being productive every day. Not hiding in a hole anywhere.
If cowardice isn't making anonymous threats in a public forum, I don't know what is.
01/22/2008 03:21 PM by Long Time Coming BS
Hi Wade,
Nice to see you posting.
01/22/2008 03:25 PM by Black Box
Would someone care to tell me how he is being "productive"? What a load of crap. After what he, Wheeler, and the rest of thm have done to a lot of innocent people, I now understand why people hire others to break kneecaps.
01/22/2008 05:23 PM by
Black Box,
Sorry to disappoint, but I am not Wade. I've kept in touch with him through all of this though.
To the person without a name,
How on earth do you know that Wade being productive is a "load of crap?" You don't have a clue as to what he is doing. Fortunately, there are people out there that have a bit more experience, and despite the issues, want to work with Wade.
Bitterness and anger will get you exactly what you've gotten...enjoy.
01/22/2008 07:40 PM by Long Time Coming BS
"...want to work with Wade?" I don't know if that's really funny or really sad.
01/22/2008 10:38 PM by LOL
I have a Garrett Gunderism that I thought I might share with the blog.
"When you can snatch the cash value from your grandmothers life insurance policy, you will be ready to live your Soul Ponzi" - G.G.
01/23/2008 07:24 AM by Black Box
I can sit silent no more. Long Time Coming BS (whatever that name means), your self righteous attitude and statements need to be challenged. Since you bring up "experience" let me share my experiences with this guy and you might want to rethink your statements here.
1. I own the house Wade lived in.
2. Wade told me in November when all of this began to blow up, he was going to buy the house back "to protect me." After weeks of dragging this along says he found me a buyer. He misrepresented the value of the house to this buyer to the tune of about $350,000 after my independent appraisal.
3. Wade made his payment to the mortgage companies with never paying my lease fee which he owed to me. 3 1/2 weeks after making his payment his check came back NSF. I would guess he cancelled the check a week after he moved out of the house, therefore stealing a month of living in the house like some freeloader.
4. Wade had a pool built, a new fence and a 4th car garage built without my approval. This is in violation of the capital lease he signed. Upon near completion of these projects, he never paid the 3 contractors who are decent men trying to make a living. Therefore he stole their goods and services.
5. Upon moving out, Wade entered the house numerous times taking fixtures in the house that were not his. (i.e. Networking wiring, refrigerators, microwaves, etc.) This could be considered theft or vandalism in some circles.
I have not met Wade, nor would I want to. I made the decision to go into this whole deal through Rex Wheeler. I do hold him responsible also for not knowing the type of person he (and many others in this group for that matter) he is.
So I do have experience. If Wade was a decent person and "productive" as you say he is, he should at the very minimum pay off the contractors he stole from. They had no reason to be stolen from other than Wade hired him.
I would venture to guess there are others out there with similar experiences.
01/23/2008 09:18 AM by Poor Sap
Blackbox:
That is awesome!!!!
01/23/2008 09:42 AM by
Now multiply PoorSap's experience by hundreds of other people taken in by this group of like-minded Producers and you'll get a feel for why people are upset and not willing to simply walk away and "learn from the experience" of getting robbed and lied to.
01/23/2008 09:43 AM by
Poorsap,
I want to thank you for sharing your experience on here. There are too many like "long time coming BS" that like to come along and dismiss all of the stealing and deception that has happened.
01/23/2008 09:47 AM by Blackbox
I don't know the Gunderson mentioned in this blog but I just read an article about him in a recent magazine issue and he seems like a nice enough fellow to me:
http://www.jthpublishing.com/PLM/Fall%2007.pdf
I hope the link works.
01/23/2008 10:03 AM by
Poor Old Sap,
1. I believe you are a good person, but I feel that emotions and assumptions are getting in the way of your vast experience. As such, you don't recognize the flaws in the facts that you misrepresent.
2. He honestly was trying to find you a buyer. He found one that wanted the house, and after looking around the buyer found it to be worth what Wade asking after comparing the other available options in that price range. There was no misrepresentation on the value of the home. The garage wasn't finished and recorded with the county so it couldn't be included with the appraisal, a 4th garage doesn't seem like much, but it puts it with a completely different set of comps--thus justifying a much higher value. Additionally, the pool that wasn't included, because it wasn't finished, in the appraisal doesn't directly increase the value of a property, but it gives appraisers some wiggle room, because people are willing to pay more for homes that have pools. Additionally, Wade had arranged for the buyer to keep the refridgerators, microwaves, theater (that Wade originally paid over 100K for), and networking that he brought with him from his old house--they were his unlike your misrepresentation.
3. I don't agree with what was done regarding your payment, however I can understand him being upset with your messing up the sale of the property that would have taken care of the contractors for the remainder of what they were owed.
4. He wasn't trying to steal goods or services from anyone. He was selling the house for less than what it was worth, but at a price that would take care of your mortgage, and the contractors. With everything else crashing around him, this was the one way he could have paid them...but that was undermined. Whether or not it is a violation of the capitol lease, I don't know.
5. Those items are his, he brought them from his old house...nice version of the "facts." Additionally, he moved out the theater, networking equipment, fridges, and microwaves the date he moved out.
6. To all the lemmings that jump in support of a biased version of the facts...good luck to you.
01/23/2008 11:41 AM by
And despite the inevitable subsequent posts...I am not Wade.
01/23/2008 12:02 PM by
Sure - you are his alter-ego. It will take bipolar disorder to justify all your deeds.
01/23/2008 12:06 PM by Preferred Buyer
What is really sad is that it is not Wade and that a human being would be so dependent, pathetic and deceived that they would champion a criminal.
01/23/2008 12:09 PM by Black Box
Hey Rick!
Nice to see you've joined the posting in defense of Wade! Have you decided when you're going to resume payments to all your preferred buyers yet?
01/23/2008 12:28 PM by
"Mess up the sale" are you kidding me?
I fairly represented the value of the home not what Wade THOUGHT it was worth. It is also interesting how you neglect to mention the contractors and how he misrepresented ownership of the property to them. Facts speak for themselves.
I am done, defend all you want. At least I am not hiding behind some "BS" name.
P.S. I don't need your patronizing "I think you are a good person, but" statement. You are an anonymous poster on an out of control blog.
01/23/2008 12:42 PM by Poor Sap
Poor Old Sap,
You represented the value of the home based upon a faulty appraisal. And with all of the stuff Wade was including with the home, the buyer felt it was fair.
Yeah, and you are hiding behind the name of a victim...congrats.
01/23/2008 12:59 PM by
What did Krakauer refer to it in "Under The Banner of Heaven"?
"Lyin' for the Lord"
Looks like how Wade lives his life. As long as what he did was good for the LDS Church, doesn't matter what the truth is. Well hopefully now he (and his defenders) are being exposed for what they are. Sap has spoken the truth plain and simple. If this appraisal was so "faulty", do you care to show a real one?
01/23/2008 01:10 PM by
Some comps that would be used on an apprasial for 'old saps' house would be MLS#653986 which sold for 1.2m on 3/07; MLS#651138 which sold for 1.68m on 7/07; and MLS #661302 which sold for 1.75m on 7/07. That is what a real apprasial on that house would look like.
01/23/2008 01:35 PM by real estate in orem
Mr. Orem Real Estate,
I would be more than happy to sell it to anyone for $1.4MM. If you are so educated on the martket and there are comps for $1.7MM I am sure you can find a buyer for my discounted price. Do you care to put up or shut up?
01/23/2008 01:44 PM by Poor Sap
So now you are willing to sell your house for that price, when previously you wouldn't let Wade sell it for that price? whatever
No i won't bring you a new buyer, i will let you lay in the grave that you have dug for yourself. :)
01/23/2008 01:48 PM by real estate in orem
I am here to tell you that there is nothing to defend about Wade Sleater. He is a Liar, crook and Thief. He took $200.000 from my Grandmother. Unfortunately, it is his grandmother also. We have different last names, Thank God!
Wade, you had better pay your Grandmother back ASAP or the people that hate and despise you on this blog will be nothing. Wade did you realize that your relatives are Livid? Wade, you better watch your back because things will get Quentin Tarantino in your world if $200.000 does not appear back in your Grandmothers estate. I give you until February 1.
Wade, you don't want to FU** with us....
01/23/2008 02:12 PM by wicket
I worked for Atlas this past summer installing DISH. Now that it's gone under I'm wondering if the sales reps will be paid their back end checks. Does anyone know the details regarding this situation? I've tried to go up the chain of authority, but since everything has fallen apart no one is taking responsability or answering questions. I've heard rumors that when Pinnacle bought out Atlas that they agreed to pay the rest of what was owed to the sales reps, but I've yet to hear from anyone regarding any of this. If anyone has any details I'd really like to know more. There's a lot of negative things I think I could say regarding my experience with Atlas, but RAF was right - complaining won't change things. I only would like to see some responsability taken and have things finally explained.
01/23/2008 03:08 PM by YourMom
I've heard that Atlas Marketing is going through bankruptcy. The plan with Pinnacle was rumored as you describe, but that all seemed to change when Doug was put in charge of the Atlas group at Pinnacle. From that point on, it seems that reps only got money if they signed up for this next summer.
01/23/2008 04:47 PM by Your Dad
to Real Estate in Orem,
You are the freaking perfect example of a stupid Real Estate Agent. I'd check your figures on that those listings you've given because back in October there was NO COMPS that would have supported the value Wade had his house mortgage at. It was financed to close to $1.4 and even $900,000 was a stretch. Again, perfect example of a realtor thinking they know how to do someone else' job. Poor Sap has actually offered you to bring him a buyer. Let's see, you're smart, figure out the commission on a home like that. If you're so sure that it would be worth $1.4, or more by your figures, then bring Poor Sap a buyer.
01/23/2008 06:13 PM by Bill
These flat out physical threats against Mr. Sleater are ridiculous! You've got to love an anonymous forum for all the big shots to come out, and all the professionals. Like all these high-powered people have nothing better to do than repeatedly visiting a blog to find the latest dirt on some people they claim to know.
Face it - most people are here to gossip about a train wreck... there are so few facts here, but slightly better grammar and spelling than most forums where people get mouthy. Nonetheless 98% of the stuff above is pure crap.
The more I read the more I believe that this had less to do with fraud & dishonesty and more to do with too many people getting involved and "investing" waaaaay over their heads. So then it becomes a place to slander and bash ANYONE that has ever had a conversation or possible business dealing with Mr. Sleater.
A very unfortunate series of events, surely mistakes made and a lot of expensive lessons learned, but is it possible to make this a productive place to share ideas/information on moving forward ?? (sorry about the use of the word productive, but it is the right word and being a producer isn't a bad thing just because some bad things happened with people that called themselves producers)
No more threats, no more tallking trash about people that really aren't involved.
01/24/2008 12:04 AM by Really - I do know everything, just ask me
Great post in Garretts blog yesterday and today. Here is yesterday's:
Holding Fund Lotto
January 22nd, 2008
In Utah there were many people that got involved with investing in "Holding Funds". If you did not, you can learn from this post, but if you did the lesson will be much bigger- that is if you are willing to try this on.
It is interesting how people became philosophical "producers" when they were able to pull some equity out of a home and then put it in a holding company. Somehow, for many, they felt that this was personal production and they began to talk the talk of a producer. The simple definition of a producer is: one who creates more value then is consumed. To really be a producer though, it is critical to create value in a unique way using your Soul Purpose. "Passive" income doesn't necessarily make someone a producer, in fact, many times it has caused laziness and was merely gambling. That is why I call it the lotto. Pull out some equity in a home, give it to someone else and there you go- freedom.
For so many, the talk of principles and producing was social programming. Each person's Human Life Value wasn't necessarily increased, the gamble just paid off- temporarily. Now, the language of the producer has been abandoned by many and the mentality of scarcity is the rule. I have seen forums where anytime that someone is being a victim there is a pouring out of compassion from other people posting , but as if that person had no responsibility or choice in the matter.
So what can be done now? First of all, I recommend people mentally let go of the money that was put into the funds. So many times people get caught up on what is wrong and hoping that it can be fixed rather than focusing on opportunity and what is possible moving forward. For many this will be a massive and painful lesson in gambling, control, Soul Purpose, and chasing returns to name a few. It is a very expensive tuition for many, but I applaud those that are moving on with creating value in the world and choosing to look at what can be done now and in the future rather than focusing on what went wrong in the past.
It is interesting to see the different sides-those that learned and are moving on and those that were greedy and now are pointing the finger to everyone else. I feel for the people that have lost trust due to this, but I respect those that learned from this. I have lost significant money in two investments in the past. The first was several years ago. When it was lost, the person I had invested with was not in communication with me and I began to go into scarcity and get really angry. It impacted my happiness and really left me being a person that I did not want to be. For a moment I wanted revenge. I wanted to trash the person's name and I actually called and left a very harsh message. What did this have to do with happiness, opportunity, abundance, and love. Kindness is not weakness. The message isn't to lose any accountability or to be wasteful; it is to live a life you love.
What changed for me was when I actually called the individual I invested with and apologized for my behaviour. Then I took a stance of creating value for him. I asked him questions to understand his situation. He had more clients than he had real estate projects to put them in. At this point I referred him to three people I knew that had plenty of projects. The tone of the conversation changed and so did our relationship. He took full accountability and is making monthly progress in repayment to me.
One of the greatest parts of this experience is that I created a tool for due diligence with investing. It has 18 questions that are critical to answer before making any investment. I wrote it looking at mistakes I had made in the past and asked "what would I have asked, knowing what I know now"? This tool is much more valueable than the the money I had lost. The key was to stop dwelling on the past and start looking to what I could do productive in the present. What was exciting about the future- this is what inspired me and is where I let go of anger, resentment and stress.
It wasn't the easiest thing, but it increased my stewardship and even my wealth after a few years. We all have lessons to learn. Do people care more about your money than you? If not why give it to them without managing your risk? Learn the lesson and live. Was your life good the day before news you weren't getting interest? What would it take for it to be good today?
More to come on the recession and personal investing.
Garrett Gunderson -
01/24/2008 12:38 AM by
To I do know everything, just ask me
I couln't agree more, taking the law into your own hands will just land you in jail. Much better to let the authorities sort this dangled web out. Let the police make the house calls. And rest assured they will.
And , hey, if Wade, Rex, and all the other Producers involved, have done nothing wrong they will learn a valuable lesson on how to conduct buisness in the future so as not piss off clients and make sure they are properly licenced before conducting buisness.
The first step is to contact the authorities
The State of Utah and the Utah Mortgage Fraud Task Force are searching for victims of Atlas Capital and Wade Sleater. If you know someone who is a victim, or if you have information that is connected to this investigation then contact:
Phone: (801) 530-6747
email: realestate@utah.gov
Heber M. Wells Building
2nd Floor
160 East 300 South
Salt Lake City 84114-6711
01/24/2008 12:39 AM by
And today's:
Holding Funds in a Holding Pattern
January 23rd, 2008
Lately I have had some questions on Holding Funds and what should be done. I personally have never set up a holding fund, but did research them and had considered them at one time. I think that the term holding fund has been very fitting for the many people I have talked with. It has become a place where people have put thier money and it is now holding there. For many, it was a way to get massive cash flow each month without any requirement of daily activity.
Unfortunately, most invested based upon a realtionship or on trust, but there were others that invested on greed. The situtaion varies, but there are many common lessons to learn.
First, there are no investments in a so-called product, it is always in people. The investment is only as good as the word and integrity as the person involed in generating the returns or making the promise to pay. For many, I think they were good people, but they had no ability to provide such returns and were merely handing their money over to someone else.
Here are some questions to ask that could present some of the many lessons for those in this situation and for others to avoid the situation in the future. Why did you invest the money? Was there any reason beyond the rate of return? If you could go back to the day you were going to invest, what questions would you ask now? And here is a big one, if something were to go wrong, how would you know about it and what could you do about it?
The problem comes down to stewardship. If we are not good stewards then loss is inevatible. For many, the loss can increase someones stewardship long-term if it brings with it insight and even systems to resolve the problem for others. I know many of these people I have talked to are not getting interest, are dissapointed with the response or lack thereof from the people they have invested with, and are hoping that they get the money back. One of the most healthy things could be to just move on as if the money is not coming back. To stop dwelling on the loss and start moving forward as I said in another post this week. Your opportunity is held captive and so is your happiness if your mind gets caught in the same holding pattern as your money.
You may have made a mistake, but now you have a choice. If you are someone that has taken money from people to earn some override, you have a choice as well. You have a choice to communicate and be honest. I have heard about the check being in the mail and nothing shows up or that it will be resolved soon, but no solutions are given. Now is the moment of truth. Choose to be courageous so that people can heal and give up false hope. Be direct even if it is hard to hear, but at the same time display compassion without enabling. That being said, there may be people that will pay or have the ability to produce and overcome the adversity, but they are those that have the ability to produce greater then the size of the problem at hand.
Who have you given your money to? What is the plan they have to recover and to overcome? Are you involved? Can you help or offer value?
01/24/2008 12:41 AM by
holy pile of sh**!
Excellant question GG-
"what would it take for it to be good today?"
hmmm, Tell your clients/blog readers to be proactive producers and FIRST contact the State of Utah mortage fraud task force if they feel like they have been defrauded. Any financial planner worth anything would recommend this first and for-most. GET THE MONEY BACK TO THE CLIENTS. Dont just walk away, lesson learned. Be a Producer and take action!
01/24/2008 12:54 AM by GG-goo goo
GG,
What do you think he is saying? Just because he doesn't rant and rave about beating people up doesn't mean he isn't suggesting that people do the right thing. Quit looking for ways to twist everything negative... read the words he used, he could have gone on and made it longer, surely there is more to say, but seriously don't start ragging on the things he "could have" said.
01/24/2008 01:03 AM by sigh
All of what Gunderson says here is valid. The only flaw in his discussion is the point of being productive. I believe many in this line of thinking stated that not using your credit was being unproductive. If you had good credit, you should be a producer and use it to secure property under the capital lease structure. Some on here believe that is mortgage fraud (see bullet point 5) in the fraud alert at the top of this page.
The question I would ask Mr. Gunderson as a financial planner, how many of his own clients did he recommend to get into this whole thing? Better yet, how many people got involved with Wheeler and Ockham from Gunderson or many of the mentees he has around the country?
It is common sense that to gain real financial wealth you need to produce more than you consume. That is called living within your means. It is also common sense that financial planners test all options before they recommend anything to their clients.
No question you live and learn, believe me I have learned a lot! But to come off as self righteous as he does in his posts without stating once his own mistakes of placing clients and recommending his mentees to place their clients in something that some consider fraud is misleading to say the least. I know for a fact many have as Wheeler would only accept clients through advisors and Garrett and his web of mentees sent a lot of clients to Rex like lemmings.
To the holding company issue, let's assume he is meaning hard lending program (I am not sure). If that is the case, yes it is passive income and one could conclude that is not being a producer.
Let me give you the rest of the story. You have equity in your house, that is not being productive. Sell your house on a capital lease and get ALL of the equity out. Maybe even get an overinflated appraisal and see if some bank will loan you more than the house is worth. Take the money loan it to Rex in a promissory note to the tune of 24% and make that unproductive equity produce something. Rex loans the money to other "producers" (i.e. Sleater and others) to generate the income since all of these producers will promise Rex to pay 60% per year on the loan Rex gave them. (Yes that is what some promised) All the negative cash flow you have on all of the other properties you are renting in Rex's model as recommended to go into by Gunderson can be offset by the interest being paid from the hard money lending program. Oh and by the way, when you do your taxes claim you are a real estate professional even if you aren't. You can get more tax savings that way.
So, while Gunderson is correct that you learn from your mistakes and move on, that doesn't mean someone shouldn't be held accountable for melfeasance or downright dishonesty. That doesn't mean to "take the law into your own hands." People should face what they have done and deal with the consequences. I am moving forward to be productive, probably in a way that Gunderson would disagree with. I actually think traditional retirement plans, mutual funds, and stocks are decent ways to create wealth for the long term. Life insurance is not the only way to produce wealth (by the way I have never seen anyone wealthy with life insurance unless they are selling it).
01/24/2008 10:05 AM by
I have heard Garrett speak a few times about not investing in things that are not secured somehow with collateral (so the promissory note scenario above does not sound right). I also would beleive that part of the reason that Garrett began to seperate himself from all of these other "producers" (long before the bottom fell out, or maybe they began to distance themselves from him) is because he didn't necessarily see eye-to-eye with these methods. I have always heard him encourage people to invest in things they actually have some control over and involve their unique abilities and talents.
01/24/2008 11:22 AM by response to last post
Garrett has distanced from no one. I know for a fact he stayed in touch with Wheeler and others at least through November. He may have quit recommending going into Rex's model, but he still has a damn picture of Rex, Wade and others on his website at one of his producer pow wows called Goal Cultivator.
01/24/2008 12:02 PM by
You can include approx. 320 people that Rex Wheeler has "scammed" as that is the number of people that are on his Chapter 11 claim he filed January 18th. Take a number folks cause if you are thinking of getting anything back from this thing it's going to be a long long wait if at all.
01/24/2008 12:04 PM by Kris K
to mystery poster 2 posts ago,
ummmm who cares if he has a picture of himself with Hitler or anyone else? Is he supposed to remove ALL traces of people that he associated with or was friends with that may have done something wrong? Would people not turn that into even larger "proof" of his guilt?
01/24/2008 03:51 PM by 2 posts ago....
Of course not, He still has the picture of the Bentley he was renting and had to give back.
01/24/2008 04:12 PM by Black Box
I love how the newletter link several posts above has a ton of FreeCapitalist/FranklinSquires/700 Credit Score ads and also includes an ad for a website subscription where you can "Access Thousands of Foreclosures Today!!"
Talk about cross-selling. You can invest w/ a FreeCapitalist 'venture' and then later view your foreclosed properties on a related site!
01/25/2008 07:14 AM by concerned family member
Concerned family member,
That was very funny, because it's true.
01/25/2008 10:11 AM by Black Box
I've been following this post very closely, more out of curosity than anything. I have some very good friends that are tied up in this crap with Wade and feel bad for them. My biggest question is what did Wade do will all the money. As far as I know there was upwards of 20 million that was invested with him. Was he handling the money personally? Or was he giving it to Rick Koeber and Franklin Squires. Does Wade have any assets or was everything financed to the max with straw buyers? Was he using that money to supplement his other bussinesse? I don't have an axe to grind or any threats to throw Wade's way but I'm really curious to know what happened to all that money. Wade once told my friend that he would never take in more money than he could pay back with things went south. Obviously that was a lie and though I feel bad for my friends because I've seen the horrible financial position that its left them in they were the one's that gave him the money and took the chance based on his word. I just want some honest answers from people who really know what happened. Because you would think with all that money that there would be something to show for it.
01/25/2008 04:00 PM by Interested Observer
Hey, I thought that I would add another log for the fire...
Does any know about Wade's Jazz box? He still has it under Source XII(12). The funny thing is, I hear he still goes to the games every once in a while. Those boxes cost like 150K a year to purchase. For those who have the power, there is another "asset" you can go after. :)
01/25/2008 04:07 PM by lol blog...
After watching this blog for months (and questioning my own wisdom for having done so) I don't think anybody who knows where the money went will actually tell, not in a forum like this anyway. I think we've gotten a pretty clear picture of how money was raised, but the spent/invested side of the equation seems to be much more speculative. I keep checking the state Securities Division web site for info as I think that's the only entity that's going to be able to force the truth out of these folks -- until then they'll just quote the company line about moving on and just be productive and good intentions and take personal responsibility and stuff (basically, "it's not our fault, the investors weren't really capitalists after all"). In the meantime, the Cause of Action (?) document filed by the state against another similar (?) group (posted previously) may be your best bet so far for the truth about how the money flowed, at least for this one group: http://www.securities.utah.gov/dockets/07009201.pdf
01/25/2008 04:19 PM by
I just read this article about Wade from just six months ago:
http://www.connect-utah.com/article_print.asp?r=2387&iid=57&sid=3&bsc
And am having difficulty reconciling "that" Wade with the stories I read here. However, his quote "We're leveraging human intelligence to create maximum production." leaves one wondering what in the world he means -- these guys seem to have created a little language of their own that allows them to say big things without really saying a stinking thing.
01/25/2008 04:39 PM by
For those of whom that are wondering what these guys are saying (Sleater/Gunderson)... "We're leveraging human intelligence to create maximum production." And the like, one must understand a little about Scientology, and/or Impact Training. Nothing wrong with expansion of intellect, the elimination of reactionary thinking or bettering oneself, but when your 29 year old investment strategist throws this sort of lingo out in regards to your money, well then one must run. Leveraging your grandmothers life savings for a $600,000 Porsche is not applied intellect, nor is it a teaching of L. Ron Hubbard...it is criminal and it is immoral! Plain and simple. These guys are silver-tongued con artists...nothing more!
01/25/2008 07:17 PM by Mystified
I have deleted the last few posts, this isn't a question of someones beliefs, it is a discussion of current monetary fraud. If you have been wronged in your life by a religious organization, then vent your frustrations elsewhere.
01/26/2008 08:30 PM by David Doerr
Poor Sap,
If an offer was put on the table for you to sell the house, no matter how inflated the value, why didn't you accept the offer? It's not up to you to warn off buyers since you feel that the house is worth less than they are asking. It is hard to feel any level of sympathy for your plight if you walked away from a willing buyer. One of the first things they teach you in real estate school is that a fair market price is what a buyer is willing to pay a seller when the buyer is making an arms length transaction. Whatever misguided sense of morality you may have may end up costing you hundreds of thousands of dollars. If a buyer felt comfortable making an offer that covered that value of the leins that were in place why would you show him a conservative appraisal to scare him away? And that thought made me think of this:
Anybody who invested money with the followers of Rick Koerber,
You are all freaking idiots. One of two things had to of happened. Either you accepted the sales pitch somebody gave you and you never bothered verify the claims being made or you verified the claims being made and didn't see the reality of the scheme that Rick Koerber's minions had created. Let's face reality here. If somebody like Wade, or Rick for that matter, could truly create more than 40% return on a consistent basis within the rules and laws of this country, every Wall St. firm would be so rabidly chasing these men down because finding somebody who is capable of doing that in the real world is given hundreds of millions of dollars to earn 40% on. Why wasn't Wall St. begging Rick Koerber, Garrett Gunderson, Wade Sleater or anybody else associated with this group to come invest their money? It's because anybody who had watched what these guys were doing knew that it couldn't last. The system only works in a VERY favorable market, and once that market goes away your investors are left holding a worthless bag of dog droppings.
If somebody comes up to you and says "I can give you a better than 24% return on your money" you had better check out (1) who the person is and what they have done. Having an MBA next to the name doesn't hurt, and they sure as hell better be able to prove that they've done it for more than a year. (2) What experience does the person have. Have they managed money at a major investment house like Merril Lynch or Goldmann Sachs? (3) What are they going to do with your money and how are they going to back it up? I'll make it easy for you, when considering investing money with Wade I had some friends of mine who were accountants try to validate his business model that Wade was using (pretty much a copy of the FranklinSquires model) and the collective opinion was that the system would implode within 5 years. Smart people knew to keep their money from Wade.
If you invested money with Wade, or any of Rick Koerber's minion's funds without verifying those basic facts then you are getting what you deserved. If you don't know what the money you intend to invest is going into, then you might as well go play blackjack. At least then you can watch the dealer take your money for each stupid play you make. You can mitch and boan all day about how you get screwed, about how you had your money stolen from you, about how you were lied to, but if you would have bothered to check the facts, then you would have found out that there is no way that any of Rick Koerber's followers (which whether he'll admit it or not, Wade was one of) could have maintained the mess they had created. And you have nobody to blame but yourselves.
01/27/2008 12:07 AM by
Are you people serious? Is anybody really looking for these people or is this just a cry-baby session. It's like the blind leading the blind, nobody knows anything! Is there any legal action being taken against them by anyone here, can you quote what your lawyer said (beside's that you should have talked to him first before signing anything)?? Is there any investigation anyone knows about for sure, is anyone an insider to the legal system, instead of an insider to the we know what they tell us system?? In this day and age, noone has any video footage of them driving expensive cars, going out on the town, or living in a van down by the river? I would think, if there are really people looking for them, or trying to get answers, there would be something more???? If anyone was really justified, they would be going straight to their doors for answers and telling us all what they said, not getting the run around from their office, or second hand information. They would explain exactly what law was broken, and what legal action would be inevitable, instead of grasping for straws because there must be something illegal about them loosing money to a apparant scam they participated in:P! Me thinks maybe some of you need to go back to the producer seminars, because what you are doing is producing nothing from what I can see.
Except...... I am bored, and like the Boss says, 57 channels and there's nothing on! And.......listening to all your whining is free, and costs me nothing, LOL!!!!! Now if you could capitalize on that, maybe you could all get somewhere! Let's say we charge admission, and find some real value in all of this eh? Cash value!
Hey, maybe someone can call Rick and the gang, and find the best way to approach capitilizing on all the sniviling going on here, yeah!!! Maybe buy some stock in kleenex, or write a book called Investment Scams for Dummies. Hey, maybe....we could sell all our whinning to eachother, pay eachother a commission, give it to a holding company, and cry when they keep it, then we could just keep doing it all over again! It's like a circle, not a square, a circle doesnt have an end it goes on and on! Hey, I think I'm on to something here! We'll create an MLM on sniviling! It values people, and it capitalizes on a natural talent and tendency, NO TRAINING REQUIRED!!!, and whining is so easy to do, LOL, LOL!!!!!!!!! All we have to do is find enough willing snivilers stupid enough to do it!!!! OK, that's it, I'm going into business for myself, all you snivilers mortgage your house to the hilt and start sending me money right away, LOLOLOLOL!!!!! You don't have to fill out an application, your all pre-qualified!!!! I got the name already picked out....Free Snivilers LLC! Owned by Snivilers Squire LLC!!!!!! Owned by New Snivilers Holding LLC, Owned by Snivilers Hill, Owned by me! I'll buy some dairy queens we can all meet at once a week to draw new snivilers in!!!!!!
01/27/2008 12:28 AM by Carry on!
There was never on "offer on the table". I am not an idiot, and I am done here. I have no need to explain myself to you or anyone else on here. I came here to tell my story of lies and deception trying to learn from others and it comes to being a "freking idiot" from a self righteous person that thinks an MBA or working for Merrill means something. If you knew what I did and my background, you might rethink your blanket comment.
The buyer was a willing one, but wanted an appraisal like any other normal person. The appraisal came in WAY below what Wade told him the house was worth, so he would pay only what the official appraisal said. Isn't that normal behavior for a purchase?
Mr. No Name, tell me how you the all knowing soothsayer of real estate and business would do it. According to your assessment of the situation, it would go something like this:
You: "Hi, I would like to buy your house. How much is it worth?"
Owner:: "1 million dollars, plus I did 200,000 dollars of improvements and havent't paid for 100,000 dollars of them.
You: "Great, I'll take it"
Seller: "According to my vast knowlege of the real estate market and business in general (I own a very valuable satellite company) it's worth $1.4 MM. Since you are such a nice guy $1.3MM."
You: "Perfect where do I sign?"
P.S. If I am the "freking idiot", why don't you learn how to spell leins? It happens to be liens, do you have to have an MBA or work at Merrill or Goldman to get that?
01/27/2008 07:52 AM by Poor Sap
One last comment to the post above mine. If you could read, you would see there are alreadly numerous investigations going on. Before you lob bombs like the one above and do you best to shut down discussion here, I suggest you read (or learn how to). I would assume you are one of Wade's, Rick's, Garrett's or Rex's foot soldiers trying to stop discussion here. You sir (or madam), need to "Carry On" and go watch one of your 57 TV stations. You might even try PPV something better than us whiners here.
For the record, I never came here to whine. I told my story to the best of my ability and numerous times stated that I made bad decisions. With that being said decisions were made due to lies, deceptions, misrepresentations, and greed. They were still my decisions. I have pursued no legal action and am not sure if I ever intend to. This has been hard enough on my career and my family to drag in much longer.
If some people learned from MY mistakes, then maybe it was worth something. If Mr. No Name three posts above thinks that is some kind of "misguided sense of morality" then so be it.
01/27/2008 08:35 AM by Poor Sap
I read several Blogs asking where Wade is. I ran into him in the Caymans last week. He was coming out of a Credit Suisse bank. Looks kike he is getting ready to get out of town.
01/27/2008 10:50 AM by To Mad as Hell...
So wade, Where are you going to get the $200.000 to pay back the family members that you scammed? I heard you got your Uncle and other family members too. Do you have ANY kind of moral backbone wade? Were you raised by Grifters? Did god tell you to do it? Greed is a bitch aint it!
01/27/2008 10:58 AM by Wade's Morals
Poor Old Sap,
Once again, as explained above, the appraisal was flawed. If the appraisal had been done with REPC in hand, and based it upon the completion of the projects, it would have more than covered the the 1.2 million that had been agreed upon.
01/27/2008 11:11 AM by
Mad As Hell,
Throwing around more misinformation doesn't do anyone any good. Unless it makes you feel better, if so, at least it is helping one person.
01/27/2008 11:14 AM by
Wade,
Go crawl back in your basement hole with your wife and kids where you belong unless you are going to be "productive" here, leave. Just wait there in your hole for the feds to be hauled off to butt banger prison where you belong. Enjoy meeting Sue in the showers and PLEASE bend over for the soap.
Your comments on here are not needed, especially if you are not man enough to sign your name. May sound hypocritical from me, but at least you know who Sap is, no one on here can tell who you are until you defend the undefensible.
P.S. I have asked once and I'll ask again, if you are so sure the appraisal was flawed, please post a link to a proper on. No facts from you other than comps from last summer. Trust me Wade, prices have changed dramatically in your neighborhood since last summer, have you seen how many of your idiot colleagues have defaulted since all this happened?
01/27/2008 11:43 AM by
Recent Related Bankruptcy Filings
Pict Date Case # Type Business Name Signed Amount (20 Largest Unsecured Creditors)
1/2/08 08-20021 11 The Monaco Collection, LLC Weston Wade Sleater $595,154
1/15/08 08-20225 11 Atlas Marketing Group, LC Weston Wade Sleater $9,893,699
1/18/08 08-20308 7 Bedrock Marketing, LLC (aka Ockham Group) Rex G Wheeler, Jr. Unknown
1/18/08 08-20300 11 Rex G Wheeler, Jr. Rex G Wheeler, Jr. $7,701,014
1/18/08 08-20303 7 Enlightened Management, LLC Rex G Wheeler, Jr. Unknown
1/18/08 08-20307 7 Property Certain, LLC Rex G Wheeler, Jr. Unknown
1/18/08 08-20305 7 The Ockham Group, LLC Rex G Wheeler, Jr. Unknown
01/27/2008 01:55 PM by concerned family member
interesting note on above...
$3.6M of the ~$10M noted in the Atlas Marketing filiing was a 'loan' from Atlas Capital. Another $500K were 'loans' from Source XII and Wade himself.
01/27/2008 02:17 PM by concerned family member
where did you get that info from?
01/27/2008 02:35 PM by
To ,
Once again, every post that is percieved as a defense of Wade, isn't necessarily from Wade. I am not Wade. I didn't post those comps. Once again, assumptions from idiots.
01/27/2008 03:10 PM by
Bankruptcy filings can be viewed free for only the first day or two. After that, you must pay $0.08 per page (or query) to view/search filings and associated documents. You can register w/ a credit card at the following website... http://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/
From there, you go to Links to PACER Web Sites>Utah Bankruptcy Court - ECF>District of Utah - Document Filing System>Query
OR, if someone wants to host the documents and post the links to this blog, I can email PDF copies of the filings.
NOTE: If you are impacted by any of the above bankruptcy filings, you should be receiving notice by mail, but, just in case, I would also highly recommend monitoring the bankruptcy case for 'proof of claim' deadlines. (i.e. Atlas Marketing case states the following: "Notice of Meeting of Creditors 341(a) meeting to be held on 2/21/2008 at 405 South Main. Proofs of Claims due by 5/21/2008.") I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what recourse you have if you miss the filing date and were somehow 'missed' when the bankruptcy case was originally filed.
01/27/2008 04:14 PM by concerned family member
You're analogy is good for a chuckle but weak in so many ways. You make an assumption that Mormonism is to blame for the activities of a few reckless men who thought they figured out a way to beat the system. But when you create a straw man and tie those people to the straw man, thinking that when you burn the one down it burns both down you are incredibly naive. Your skills of reasoning surely have failed you if this is the best you can do.
As for the religious argument, you'll have to produce the historical, scientific, dna, anthropological evidence to back up your claims. Simply stating they exist proves nothing other than you like to blow smoke.
As for the history of Rick Koerber, Gabe Joseph, Wade Sleater and the others at the heart of the Utah Chapter of "Let's-promise-the-world-and-give-them-a-small-pile-of-dirt" club, your time is wasted because everybody already knows the result of their smoke and mirrors act. So what was your point in coming here other than having a good reason to swipe at "Joe" Smith?
01/27/2008 06:05 PM by Got to love the crazies
Concerned family member:
Send the pdfs to fraud.investigator1@gmail.com
They will be posted at http://fraud-forum.blogspot.com/
Thanks
01/27/2008 06:44 PM by
Has anyone else seen Wade out of the country? Does anyone know where this scum bag is hanging out? Wade, oh Wade, come out and play...
01/27/2008 07:28 PM by Livid Investor
Rumor has it that indictments are coming down next week against Atlas and Wade. A Big Bird told me next Thursday... Please let me know if this is true.
Thanks,
Lost everything
01/27/2008 08:06 PM by Lost Everything
DO NOT POST anti religious rhetoric here.The fact that Wade, Rick, or any one else being LDS has nothing to do with the greed and deception that has taken place. Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all born agains are religous zealots, it will just keep getting deleted.
01/27/2008 09:00 PM by David Doerr
Livid Investor,
Why would you want to have anything to do with Wade? Will going mafia hit man on him make you feel better? Just remember that karma is a bitch, and that with all the people Wade screwed over (you included) that he'll get his just desserts. Just wait for the process to work itself out and then Wade will get what he deserves.
01/28/2008 01:25 AM by
If you are trying to get money back from Wade Sleater then you may want to file your complaint with the state as soon as you can because you're already falling behind others: LIKE THE IRS
Entry #:116465-2007 Recorded: 8/10/2007 11:13:56 AM
Consideration:$104,039.78 IRS TAX LIEN
Abbv Legal Desc: - SERIAL #381670507
REAL PROPERTY: LT 3 MT AIREY AT RED HAWK RANCH R1-N26,2
SLEATER, SHANDA
SHANDA DAWN SLEATER TRUST SEPT 10 2004
SLEATER, WESTON W (Wade goes by his middle name on some deals and uses his first name "Weston" on others. Also he has some property in his wife's name:
SLEATER, SHANDA
01/29/2008 01:26 AM by Gault's Gultch
Dennis Webb is Wade's mentor and former mission president. He's the owner of opperation kids Toll-Free: 888.257.KIDS I don't know what if any his role is at atlas
· info@operationkids.com
The rumor is that Wade is getting financial help from Dennis Webb. I don't know if this is true but it would be too bad if it were true.
01/29/2008 01:29 AM by Gault's Gultch
Here are the email addresses of the dudes at the State Division of Securities (part of the State of Utah Department of Commerce) who appear to be investigating SIMILAR transactions and entities. That is not to say that they are currently looking at anybody listed here -- I have no idea. If you want to file a complaint or just contribute info that you are aware of with the Division of Securities they are eager to hear from you. They want to clean things up but require information that they seem unable to get unless it comes from live people.
Mike Hinses: m.hinses@utah.gov
Wayne Klein: w.klein@utah.gov
You can also get additional info about the Division at: http://www.securities.utah.gov/
Or you can call them at: 801-530-6600
Criminal Charges were filed agains one Paul Bouchard and Hunters Capital on or around December 4th for his involvement in a "real estate scheme" which is reminiscent of some folks expereinces as outlined on this board. Here are the actual charges from the Division of Securities web site:
http://www.securities.utah.gov/press/bouchard.pdf
This link was posted previously on this board but I think that in light of all the speculation that has taken place since it was posted we would do well to re-establish that there are actual facts coming out and they are being pursued only because intersted citizens are pushing them through the system and providing the truth to the investigators. Without that participation this would fade away. This thing goes a lot deeper than the one guy charged so far, we all know that, I encourage everybody with a story to tell, whether it's your own or your friends' or your family's, please contact the Division of Securities, give them your story, answer their questions and let's hope that they can sort it all out! Let us know what you find out and we'll help get to the bottom of this.
01/29/2008 01:31 AM by Wade's Gultch
ATLAS CAPITAL & WADE SLEATER SOUND A LOT LIKE HUNTERS CAPITAL:
According to charging documents, Bouchard and his company, Hunters Capital, commited the following crimes:
Approached investors with the following offers:
* Investor's money would be used for hard money loans to buy real estate in exchange for promissory notes.
* Investors could get their deposit back with a 30-day written notice.
* Investors would receive a 3-4% return per month on their investment with Hunters Capital.
HELLO ATLAS & WADE YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING AREN'T YOU???
01/29/2008 01:35 AM by Wade's Gultch
Kyle Nelson is talking to investigators Wade...you may want to call him!! K-Swiss and Doug have also signed sworn affidavits. How does 30 years in prison sound for starters. The Fed's are looking for more sworn testimony: Call them and tell them what you heard, saw, know, or experienced. Sonny, Jordan, Shanda, Kyle
01/29/2008 01:41 AM by Wade's Gultch
Rumor has it that indictments are coming down next week against Atlas and Wade. A Big Bird told me next Thursday... Please let me know if this is true.
SOMEONE SAID:
"THIS IS NOT EXACTLY TRUE. WARRANTS WERE PROCESSED IN FEDERAL COURT LAST WEDNESDAY AND ARE IN THE NAMES OF KYLE NELSON, WADE SLEATER, DOUG ROBINSON, ATLAS CAPITAL, KEVIN SWISS, ATLAS MARKETING, SOURCE 12, DECADE MEDIA, GALT'S GULCH, SHANDA SLEATER, JORDAN SHIELDS." The investigation is still going and they are still trying to gather as much information as can be found...please don't think that they have what they need and they gat these jerks. Please contact the investigators.
I DON'T KNOW WHY DENNIS R. WEBB's name keeps coming up. here is some information about him:
Vice-Chairman of the Board of Content Watch - Wade Sleater connection???
Webb is the Co-founder and CEO of ContentWatch, Dennis has also been involved extensively in the co-founding and creation of many successful businesses including Franklin Quest. While at Franklin Quest he was responsible for 250 million dollars of product development and distribution. In addition, he trained clients from numerous Fortune 500 companies, including PriceWaterhouseCoopers, Dow Chemical, Merrill Lynch, and Citibank. Dennis is a much sought-after speaker on a wide range of topics, ranging from leadership to time management to financial planning to team-building.
Dennis received his bachelor's degrees in Finance, Management, and Political Science from the University of Utah, and a Master of Business Administration degree from George Washington University.
For Other Questions, Comments, or Inquiries:
Call 1 (800) 485-4008 or email us at info@contentwatch.com
ContentWatch Corporate Office:
2369 West Orton Circle
Salt Lake City, Utah 84119 USA
General Phone/Fax Numbers:
Corporate Phone Number: (801) 977-7777
Corporate Fax Number: (801) 975-8144
01/29/2008 02:29 AM by Ayn Rand
Is there really a connection between Wade Sleater/ Atlas Capital and Dennis R. Webb ? I can't imagine that Dennis R. Webb would be involved in fraud and money schemes with Wade Sleater. I keep seeing his name on this blog and others and Wade says online that Dennis Webb is his mentor. What does he mean by mentor? And who is sonny? Maybe someone should call this Webb guy and tell him to stay clear or come clean with the nature of the relationship.
01/29/2008 02:36 AM by Just wondering
To Wade & Everyone Else:
Anyone who thinks Wade is not a true hero!! And I mean hero!!! Go see his blog and tell me you don't see a hero in his eyes. Wade, you hang in there!! The first person who has not stolen millions of dollars from family and friends cast the first stone...well well, that's what I thought...we all need to set down our stones and walk away because we are all guilty of the same thing...and you know it. First seek out the stone in your own eye, then shall your tounge be loosed and you shall speak like a ton of angels.
http://www.wadeandshanda.blogspot.com/
Thanks for being my friend Wade, thanks for making my life a little more in focus. Jon and I don't need that money if it means you're going to hate us for making you pay it back. I would rather be your friend than have you be mad at us for making you pay back the $70k. Jon might not get it, but I do, he's not a Sleater so he may never truly get it. Grandma says she needs her money back, but you and I both know that she is just being greedy. I am still laughing from the other night when you were sining that song " Grandma Got Run Over By Wade Sleater...Coming home from our house Christmas Eve...you may not belive in Wade Sleater but as for our grandma... she is sure as hell in need." You are so funny Wade, and that's what I love about you. I wish Jon could know what its like to have the strength to just swallow that money and let it go. Its just money, and we have a lot of other stuff from working at Atlas. I stillhave that Lap-top...and when I get the cord to it Jon will see that its a nice lap top.
01/29/2008 03:29 AM by J S-S
WADE SLEATER USES THE NAME "FACT" WHEN RESPONDING TO POSTS ON THIS BLOG.
WADE FOR THE REST OF YOU LIFE WHEN YOU HEAR THE SONG (Grandma Got Run Over By Wade Sleater...Coming home from our house Christmas Eve...you may not belive in Wade Sleater but as for our grandma... she is sure as hell in need)
FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE REMEMBER THAT SONG AND YOUR GRANDMA...EVERYTIME YOU HEAR IT ON THE RADIO, THINK OF THE "WADE SLEATER" VERSION.
01/29/2008 03:33 AM by GRANDMA GOT RUN OVER BY WADE SLEATER
Who in the heck is Dennis Webb? Wade Sleater's alias name when doing business??
01/29/2008 03:38 AM by grant's tomb
Is Tiffany Sleater involved with Wade in doing all these real estate transactions?
01/29/2008 03:50 AM by
GALT'S ENTERPRISES I, INC.
Entity Number: 6592732-0142
Registration Date: 04/30/2007
State of Origin:
Address
3520 N UNIVERSITY AVE, STE 300
Provo, UT 84604
Status
Status: Active
Status Description: Good Standing
This Status Date: 04/30/2007
Last Renewed: N/A
License Type: Corporation - Domestic - Profit
Delinquent Date: 04/30/2008
Registered Agent
Registered Agent: ANDREW L HOWELL
01/29/2008 04:07 AM by Invesitgators Look Here For WADE SLEATER
01/29/2008 04:09 AM by Here is WADE Sleater
Is Wade actually a homosexual? Or is it just the picture that makes him look gay? He looks like he might actually enjoy the time that he'll be spending in prison.
01/29/2008 05:21 AM by
What does Gult's Enterprises have to do with all of this?
01/29/2008 08:31 AM by
David,
Great Post... I hope this does spread across the USA... thank you
Rick
01/29/2008 09:28 AM by Rick Kellow
FBI investigating mortgage fraud:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/29/fbi.mortgage.fraud/index.html
Officials identified the states that are the "top 10 mortgage fraud hot spots" as California, New York, Texas, Florida, Georgia, Utah, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and Michigan.
01/29/2008 08:28 PM by
A prior post asked who were the names of some of the people believed to be involved or associated with Atlas or Sleater? Though innocent until proven guilty, and maybe even victims, here are some names that I have found in digging around and asking around:
Nick Hansen, Jon Copple, Jon Shields, Josh Sleater, Jordan Shields, Dave Force, Casey Baugh, Ashton Buswell, Doug Robinson, Kevin Swiss, Mark Craner, Kyle Neslon, Brandon Grover, Devin Johnson, Tiffany Sleater, Jason Summer, Michael Lewis, Rex Wheeler, Brad Kitchen, Ron Clarke, Andrew Howell, Cody Moore, Rick Koerber, Dennis Webb, Mike Isom, Garret Gunderson, Ray Hooper, Ken Blanchard, Spencer Johnson, Ryan Nelson, Cody Jolley, Kevin Burke, Josh Anderson, Mike Dover,
Some of Wade's Companies
Prodigy Networks, Atlas Marketing, Atlas Capital, Atlas Ventures, Galt's Gulch, Galt's Enterprises, ISM (Independent Student Media), Source 12, Diversified Escrow, Engenuity, Monaco Motors, Decentrix, Dishstar, Atlas Communications, Decade Media,
01/29/2008 09:11 PM by Tyson
Wade sold assets is the last days of his business to make sure that his dad: Sonny Sleater did not lose a dime. His dad's name is Sonny Sleater and he lives in Gig Harbor, Washington. It is rumored that Wade's dad and sister had several major assets put into his name to hide them from Bankruptcy. While investigating please check these items as well. Does anyone have any information about this matter?
01/29/2008 09:18 PM by Special Asst. Prosecution ID#55-A6341003
WADE IS STAYING IN HIS WIFE SHANDA'S SISTERS BASEMENT. HE IS STILL USING THE CELL PHONE HE HAS ALWAYS HAD, HE JUST WONT ANSWER IT. SEND HIM A TEXT.
01/29/2008 09:29 PM by COROZO
HEY, WHO EVER CAME UP WITH THE " GRANDMA GOT RUN OVER BY WADE SLEATER" CHRISTMAS SONG IS BRILLIANT. I HAVE BEEN LAUGHING ALL DAY. I TOLD A BUNCH OF WADE'S OLD EMPLOYEES THIS TODAY AND THEY DIED LAUGHING.
AS FOR ME AND GRANDPA...WE BELIEVE!!!
GRANDMA GOT RUN OVER BY WADE SLEATER
01/29/2008 09:33 PM by GRANDMA GOT RUN OVER BY WADE SLEATER SONG
Wow! Looks like this is all coming together.
P.S. The "unknown" guy in the picture above is simply referred to as "Chubby-Bald-Guy".
01/29/2008 09:35 PM by Insider
If anyone has Sleaters cell number please post it.
01/29/2008 09:45 PM by Black Box
It's interesting that nobody notices that there is a HUGE housing challenge thru-out the country. In some cities, one out of 25 homes are in foreclosure. Is it POSSIBLE, I mean, is there a chance that there was a business that involved a lot of real estate that was grossly affected by the same factors that affected millions and have created financial crunches throughout even the largest financial companies such as Citibank, is causing financial panic across, not only the nation, but the world? Is it possible that Wade (whom I don't know) or Garrett's boots or his car (I know G, but not his boots or car) were affected by a fast change in the nations market and those who were involved happened to be affected to (I lost over $2mil. in homes in various states). I know it hurts. I know we want to blame. But is it possible?
01/29/2008 09:58 PM by RockyRoad
Rocky Road,
Of course it is possible, these idiots just don't have a clue. Bunch of people gossipping all affirming one another.
01/29/2008 10:11 PM by Not only is it possible...
Oh, please! This is about fraud not the subprime market.
01/29/2008 10:23 PM by
Rocky Road, are you freakin' serious? Have you read the hundreds or perhaps even thousands of complaints against Atlas and their "tactics" on the internet? This isn't just about borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, this is sheer illegal, immoral and utterly irreverant behavior. Every aspect of this conduct was deceptive and out integrity. There comes a crossroad in every persons life where the opportunity to do "good" or to do "evil" is presented and some pass the test and some fail the test. This is a FAIL for all parties concerned. It's sad really, just perusing the blogs of these "felons", their wives actually think that these young punks are doing something REAL! That their husbands actually are CEO's and Presidents and Founders of dozens of successful Corporations, that they have legally purchased dozens of High-Line vehicles and that God has "blessed" them and has forsaken the hard working "poor-saps" of this world.
Hell, my wife questions me when I take her away to Park City for a weekend, or take Friday afternoon off to hit P.F. Chang's before the crowds of Sleaters and Koerbers arrive.
Rocky, give us all a break and GO away!
01/29/2008 10:25 PM by Dude!
The bankruptcy petition for Atlas Marketing has been posted at http://fraud-forum.blogspot.com for those who may be interested.
01/29/2008 10:37 PM by
Rocky Road,
Here comes the barrage. A voice of reason is a lonely place on this blog. People can't even consider something as simple as the fact that the subprime market has affected all aspects of real estate--it get's in the way of their agenda. They are only looking for information that backs up their limited view of the situation. And there are those that seem to have nothing better to do than bash these people at any opportunity. Those mentioned have already been tried and convicted as "felons" on this blog, based upon the limited and skewed information that they have. Any perspective other then their own is not allowed on the blog. Reason has ceased to exist, logic is futile...in this world.
01/29/2008 10:55 PM by Take Luck!
The guy on the left in the pic above is Kevin Swiss. Although he's a jerk and a friend of tw*t face, he isn't to blame for this mess.
To Rocky Road (aka B.M.)
The downfall of all these Utah companies is not because of the sub-prime market, but because they were ponzi schemes. And like all ponzis they were destined to fail. If at all, the sub-prime mess just sped up what was already going to happen. So the answer is no, it is not possible.
Anyone ever heard one of these guys tell the story about his "dot-com" company? It's a clever act that uses a well known and widely felt financial melt-down to create a sympathetic narrative for him to disguise his disasterous business judgment, reprehensible ethical behavior, and torpedoed investors. To call what he was even doing here in WY a dot-com company is a stretch. Again it fits with the narrative that he was an innovative big-thinker whose got broad sided by an outside market melt-down.
To anyone still listening, do you see a pattern emerging with these guys with excuses about the sub-prime market? They're hoping you turn a blind eye to what they have done over the last 5 years, and sympathize with them (because we've all taken a hit right?). So I guess it's up to you as to whether this is an acceptable justification.
In my opinion these guys are not victims of the sub-prime market they are actually some of the worst contributors to it. Damn them.
01/29/2008 10:59 PM by Casperite
To the apologists above, please read this and tell us if you really see no harm in the actions described:
http://www.securities.utah.gov/dockets/07009201.pdf
If you can't admit that at least this one group was committing fraud and completely ignored securities law than you are not able to be objective anymore about this (you wouldn't be the first on this blog to lose their objectivity).
The only question is my mind is: how many groups/entities/individuals were out there taking advantage of people and markets the way these guys were? These scams were the perfect storm of ignorance, greed and envy (with a large dose of hero worship).
Ironically, the very securities laws that these people vilified and ignored would have saved them all through things like disclosure, prospecuses (is that a word?), financial transparency, transaction integrity, financial reporting, declarations of risk, etc which seem to have all been ignored.
Lastly, the fact that the market tanked does not clear the slate for the cheaters...nice try though. I look forward to your review of the article above.
01/30/2008 12:04 AM by
I love driving around seeing all of the "Principals Govern" signs that Rick Koerber has up around the valley. Do principals govern Rick? How come you haven't given up all of the earnings to pay back all of the investors of Founder's Capital? Could it be because you would rather keep the money? Which principal is that Rick? Screw thy neighbor before you screw thyself? How about all the wonderful lessons you taught to the Wader Sleaters of the world so they could go and practice what you preached? (I've met Rick on several occassions, and if you don't think he reads all of this stuff to find out what people are saying you're crazy. He has an ego the size of the Hidenberg... speaking of gas giants about to errupt)
Dude!... I used to work for Atlas and I don't know what "tactics" you are referring to. Customers who had a legitimate complaint about the product Atlas sold and how they sold it would have talked to a lawyer (and I have seen a fews of the lawsuits that didn't go anywhere) and sought remedy through the legal system. The facts of the matter are this, people feel like they got "duped" when a salesman came to their door and sold them a system they didn't really need. Then, when the slightest thing goes wrong with the system they say that Atlas screwed them. I've met a few customers who have had legitimate complaints, and they were fairly dealt with. Just because a person doesn't know how to say "No, I don't want it" doesn't mean that Atlas was using "tactics" to force people to buy systems. If you are willing to give up your social security number, credit card number and all of your contact information then you must have wanted it. While I know one or two of the Atlas reps who had concealed-carry permits, I'm 100% positive they never used those guns to get a customer to sign a contract.
RockyRoad... Let's not try and let people off the hook here. This whole mess that Rick Koerber created (this is of course his brain child, Atlas Capital is just one of the biggest names in the pond, but there are plenty of others, like Axiom, Annuit Coptis, Hunters, etc. etc.) was designed around one philosophy, let's take advantage of the markets as they are, inflate them heavily, and run away when the crap hits the fan. The fact that the sub-prime markets crashed isn't the only factor in this, it just accelerated it. Real estate is supposed to appreciate 6% annually nationwide. Of course local factors come into play, but any time a regional market sees double digit growth every year for several years running you have to stop and look at why. Garrett Gunderson once told a crowd about the fallicy of the real estate bubble and asked if anybody in the room had seen a real estate bubble burst. Turns out that very few people remember 1991.
If you don't learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it, and what Rick did was ignore the history, taught hundreds of people how to milk 10's of millions out of the financial institutions that were crazy enough to lend the money and give that money to him. Or Gabe, or Wade, or whoever else was running a similar program. Not a ponzi scheme in the strictest of senses, but still has the same spirit as one. Rick wasn't the only guilty one of this, but he was a major factor is the gross over inflation of the Utah real estate market. As a result there is a record high vacancy rate in Utah with financial institutions left holding the worthless bag of burning dog crap.
Casperite... What Rick did had very little effect on the sub-prime market. Banks got greedy and started lending to a financially unstable class (people with credit scores below 600.) There's a reason that people have credit scores that look like crap, and that reason is THEY DON'T PAY THEIR BILLS!!! There was a real estate boom that happened over the past few years and the banks wanted to take advantage of everybody wanting to get into their own homes. What was the result? A huge balloon being floated and the gas running out before it could find a safe place to land. I'm not saying this to excuse what the FranklinSquires crowd has done, but this part of the mess is the result of banks rolling the dice and seeing snake-eyes.
Rick, if you really want to examine principals, let's do an examination of the principal of karma. It's one thing to take advantage of favorable market conditions. It's an entirely different one to take the money and run. Just remember Rick... Karma is a b***h
01/30/2008 12:59 AM by The Facts... Learn 'em, Love 'em, Live 'em
COROZO,
Do you know Shanda's sisters name? Do you know her address?
01/30/2008 01:03 AM by
I've got to say that I don't read Rocky Roads post and think that he is trying to blame everything on the sub-prime market crashing. He asked if it was possible that it had some affect on the "investments" discussed in this blog (and many others).
Again, it really "appears" that there were other factors involved, which may have included some dishonesty by SOME of the people mentioned in this blog. Don't everyone freak out because I only said "dishonesty" instead of fraud, illegal activity, rape, rape as an accomplice, etc, etc. I will be leaving the investigation to the investigators and see what charges are brought up - if any. Yep I said it, I don't think we'll see near the number of suits/cases/charges as people on this blog make it sound like we'll see.
The fact that I lose money in an investment doesn't mean someone broke the law, no matter how much better it makes me feel. I feel for all of those affected by the entire situation. It seems like it was a fun ride while it lasted, and I would love to see how many people talking the most trash here are only upset because they had no equity to cash out and put into one of these investments.
I had nothing to do with any of these people listed above (actually I went to college with one of them and crossed paths a few times, but they don' seem to be a real player here and I hold back the name to spare them from being torn to shreds), and I have not invested in much other than mutual funds and some stock. No my name is not Wade, and I have never been paid one cent by anyone associated with any of these companies. BUT I firmly beleive that posters on this blog have gone way too far and have less character than most of the people they are trashing.
01/30/2008 01:03 AM by one more try
Rocky Road - Is Jordan Sleater-shields Jon's wife...
Love the "Grandma Got Run Over by Wade Sleater" Christmas Tune!!!!
01/30/2008 10:31 AM by Sparkleberry
I hate to say it, but the subprime fallout did have SOME effect on what Wade/Koerber were doing. Yes it is/was a ponzi scheme and it was eventually going to catch up to them, but they weren't expecting the 100% stated/stated loans to go away. This is what got them. People who they recruited as "investors" were not able to get the money they needed out of their houses. When that stopped, so did the "investments". When they weren't able to dump all the money into Atlas Capital, Kyle, Rusty, Ryan, Doug, Kyle's Dad, Wade's Dad, Wade's Grandmother (previously mentioned) and a TONS of other people started freaking out.
It's kind of like the airline industry. They operate on such thin margins, that a couple days of no revenue could completely destroy them. That's exactly what happened with Wade. He owed people SO MUCH money that the slightest hiccup and it all went to hell in a handbasket.
I hope he goes to jail and get what he deserves. I also hope the other people involved get more than just a slap on the wrist.
Let's not post phone numbers or people unrelated to the situation. I know Shanda's Sister but would never tell you where she lives or who she is. Let's keep the discussion focused.
01/30/2008 10:57 AM by Bill
Great post Bill. We can and should make this civil. Why do we have to go to their (Sleater/Koerber/Wheeler) level to make a point? I could post Wade's and Wheeler's number and address but that does no good. I would hope people on here would begin to share information and stop with the personal threats. I believe in justice and know they will get what is coming to them. Believe in the system, they will be held accountable for what they did. I got a copy of the Wheeler (Ockham) bankruptcy this week. Amazing how similar it is to Sleater's. They are getting full protection, but the government wants their money, believe me they will get it.
01/30/2008 11:43 AM by
Fraud HAPPENS in both up and down markets, it generally gets PUNISHED in only the down market. A down market is the lighthouse that occassionally swings around to focus a brilliant light on fraud for a brief time. Not because the fraud wasn't already there, but because nobody was shining their light in the right spot until the downturn.
I think that in their zeal to believe that Principals Govern many of these people lost track of other truisms that were less convenient to the investment side of their cause, like the fact that Markets Fluctuate. I've had probably a dozen friends talk to me about this (and/or similar) opportunity over the past few years and it's always struck me that they have the same financial mentality of the "New Economy" prophets and followers of the dot.com era, but with a new vocabulary of their own making and a new religion of Properity Economics to keep your eyes off the details of the transactions. In their left hand they have a little black box of financial security without work through their tiered real estate and investment scam, in their right hand there is a blaring, booming, constant retoric of self reliance and stewardship and freedom and conspiracy against you by those who were not of like mind. Invest your money in the black box so that you will have the freedom to invest your time and talents in the Cause. The sheer volume of the religion drowned out any nagging concerns about the quiet transactions they steered you towards.
I hear and see a strong effort being made over the past 6 months to excuse this as an unforeseeable market shift. Every market fluctuates, the law won't punish these scoundrels for losing money, they will be punished for not keeping their investment house in order, for not telling people the truth, for telling half the story, for comingling funds that should have been kept seperate, for writing lousy contracts that were unilaterally broken or not delivering contracts at all, for lack of any semblance of transparency as money moved from hand to hand (and got smaller as it moved), for selling unregistered securities, for selling securities without a license to do so, for not divulging the risks involved in the investments they solicited, for not providing any compliance oversight over people soliciting funds in their behalf, for not treating investors equally for the same investment, for all the side deals that got people like realtors and appraisors and mortgage brokers to wink at each other as they as they each told the mark/investor the company line and took monstrous amounts of money from the fleeced, there's just too much fraud here to start giving them credit for being the victims of a down market.
This isn't about a down market, it's just that the down market is what exposes fraud. Once the investor loses money they look at their paperwork and ask themselves "What the @#$% is this?" and begin asking uncomfortable questions that they should have asked before investing -- then they roll over on the person who sold them, who eventually rolls on the person above them, and on it goes for a couple of years. The only thing we learn from the discussion of the down market is that investors are often willing participants in fraud so long as they are "getting theirs" -- maybe "participant" is too strong a word, for most it was "overlook the rough edges", for some they were just out of their depth and took peoples word for things they shouldn't have. I am acquinted with several people who lost most of what they had and each now says that in retrospect the investment didn't seem very clear to them, each has stated that the "valuations" they were being delivered by those packaging the deals was obviously untrue but they were reassured that it would be true in a year or two so it was just fine, the opportunity was sold in a way that the abandoned doubt and questions in favor of near blind hope and trust. They had been taught "Economics" by some kid who learned it from a radio program. Beyond that I see no real relavance to the down market. Did it cause the downfall of these schemes? Certainly it did in part. Is it the reason they were wrong, unethical and often illegal? Certainly not. Let's not confuse a down market with fraud -- one exposes the other, not creates the other.
I agree that noone should be posting stuff that makes light of somebody's grandma -- the grandma's transaction may be relavent, but the mocking nature of its recounting is foolish and just as evil as the men and women who took advantage of others financially. And nobody should be held accountable for the misadventures of their siblings. This is serious stuff that's ruining lives and we should treat it with a bit more reverance.
01/30/2008 12:08 PM by I have no idea what the #$%& I'm talking about!
The Facts... Excellent post, I agree with most of your perspective, and yes, if someone gives all of their personal credit information, than they are the ones to blame for agreeing to be serviced. But on a whole, Atlas' "tactics", some of which are illustrated here on this blog speak for themselves. The messengers (salesmen) are not to be held accountable, it is the creators of the message. Double billing, triple billing, excessive billing, additional billing and the like are works of their creators and not the wiiling sales staff themselves. The lack of scruples and integrity are where these concepts are born, people who invent and employ these sort of "tactics" are the ones in which I refer to here, not you! I too own a business, employ many, but it is I that either reaps the reward of my message and subsequent return and referral business or suffer the implosion and repurcussions of sending the wrong message. I don't blame a 21 year old eager to possess a shiny new Ferrari, I blame one's mentor or Guru if you will. The difference here is that I offer "real" incentives for "real" results and "real" pay for "real" outlay. If you produce $10,000.00 in monthly sales for me, "I" will lease you a $500.00 per month vehicle. $20,000.00, a $1,000.00 per month vehicle. And if you effectively communicate my message to enough people, well...the sky is the limit!
May we all "be" well, happy and prosperous.
01/30/2008 01:16 PM by Dude!
Any objective observer (if there is such a person) would definitely conclude that these two trends (up or down market and the increased amount of fraud) have a "chicken and egg" relationship rather than existing independantly from each other or even just correlating with each other. There is definite cause and effect (even though it's cyclical in nature) from having up market, too much opportunity, too many people who are late to take advantage, too much fraud from those who want to take advantage, and as a result down market.
Of course, I oversimplified the process but my point is these trends are interrelated and those fraudsters make very "valuable" contribution to produce down martket. Therefore the market trend cannot be used as an excuse for those who commited fraud. Talking about Karma - down market becomes a Karma that exposes the fraud. Well, I am repeating myself.
01/30/2008 02:18 PM by Preferred Buyer
I agree with much of what has just been posted. But what I agree with the most is: one more try. There have been some investigations and charges, but who would venture to speculate on whether Rick, who has made many political contributions and allies, can/will capitilize on those connections and avoid being convicted of anything. It's not about fault, it's about who you know. Who would like to speculate on that principle/fact???? I think people better see it coming because we've all seen it in the past.
01/30/2008 03:34 PM by
Wade it is my Grandmother and yours that you scammed for $201.000. I noticed it on your Atlas bankruptcy. Hopefully you stashed a bunch of money with Your Dad amd mother. (Sonny Sleater and Patricia C. Sleater) in Gig Harbour, Washington. You are going to need the money Wade. You see, If you dont pay her back by Feb 1 2008, Someone might have to pull a Reindeer out of your ass.
Wade will be the one getting run over by a reindeer. 2 more days you scumbag.
01/30/2008 05:14 PM by Sleaters are Liars.....
In referrence to the previous post, I agree with the "who you know" concept. It would be a truly sad reality to know that Koerber got off of this whole thing unscathed! That would be twice in about 5 years time. Shame on us for allowing this to happen. Who the hell gave this guy their hard earned money after already knowing he was a criminal? When I see "his" billboards I see, ugly, devious, arrogance, ego, criminal and other specific descriptions that relate more to Satan than to Savior! Let's not let all these posts on this and other sites be in vain!
01/30/2008 05:16 PM by Concerned
If I were making threats to others, I would make sure they are grammatically correct and make logical sense. Otherwise, I would just look stupid. Try to work on that.
01/30/2008 07:11 PM by Go back to school
Anyone know what the Joe Johnson/Aspen Capital connection is? Seems like some of the recent Atlas real estate transactions are linked to Aspen, but Aspen is also named as one of the largest creditors in the Atlas Marketing bankruptcy (to the tune of $3.6M).
01/30/2008 11:22 PM by concerned family member
Joe Johnson is Devin Johnson's dad. He loaned Wade that money and Wade gave him some collateral. However, Wade also promised that property to others as collateral. So when the final days came six people showed up all carrying a secured note...signed by Wade. As you can tell from the Bankruptcy papers, Joe was left holding the bag...like many others. I have heard that Wade's problems are inexcess of $20 Mil. The Joe Johnson deal is connected to the Marker's Club homes.
01/30/2008 11:31 PM by That Reindeer bit is a hoot
Yeah...anyone who wants to hear a high opinion of Mr. Sleater should get a hold of Joe Johnson. He'll have a thing or two to tell you about Wade's business practices. Having done a little research on Joe, I think he is a pretty well-respected business man...but I don't know how in the world Wade convinced him to give him any money...does no one do any due dilligence here?!?! Anyway, from what I've heard, Joe has a thing or two to say..maybe he could get his son, Devin, to post a little somthing here to enlighten us....
01/30/2008 11:59 PM by give 'em hell!!
What truly horrifies me is that the people that really could make sure that Rick Koerber was shut down for good will all run for the hills rather than turn on Rick. Has anybody seen Gabe "The Invisible Hand" Joseph around anywhere?
It's not even about who you know, because even with all of the friends Rick has made, none of them could keep him out of jail if the full truth about what Rick has done becomes public. But Rick was smart this time. He hired lawyers before he started doing this whole enterprise to make sure that he was fully insulated from everything. You might as well call Rick the Teflon man because nothing will stick to him. Even IF (and that's the biggest 'if' in the history of 'ifs') everybody were to turn and testify against Rick, they'd still have one hell of a time getting him for anything.
I have a friend who knows somebody involved in the investigation of Hunter's Capital (so you can take this however you'd like) and she told me that everybody investigating Hunter's knows that Rick is involved but there is no way to tie it to him. The Real Estate and Securities divisions of the state government would love nothing more than to put Rick's head on a silver platter, but Rick knew he was going to be commiting fraud en masse and wanted to protect himself from the consequences. When Rick taught this whole scheme to his mindless lemmings, he neglected to say "You'd better get lawyers to set this up right or you'll be in some deep trouble down the road when this all collapses."
I agree with Bill... I can't say that I've been screwed by Wade more than the next person (I know a few that have more than half a mil with him) but there comes a point where posting phone numbers and names is nothing more than causing unneccesary harm to people who don't deserve it. Doug Robinson for example. Say what you will about the guy, but he was one of the few people laying it all on the line to try and save Atlas Marketing. Turns out that Wade did so much damage to the company that it was beyond saving.
To the idiot who is posting threats against Wade because of their shared grandma... If you are truly as stupid as I think you are capable of you need to put the reindeer down, go home and take a cold shower. It won't be hard to connect the dots once something happens, and while normally I get a big kick out of idiots increasing the population of the prison system, it isn't worth it. I'd rather see Wade serve decades in jail in misery rather than him surviving a beat down and being turned into a helpless victim who can recover. You can't recover once you drop that bar of soap.
01/31/2008 12:04 AM by The Facts...
I noticed that someone above mentioned Wade's suite at the Jazz games....I was just at the game a few weeks ago with my girlfriend, and saw him up there!! Poor guy...it looks like he was on hard times, I don't think he was able to afford the catering in the suite...had to go get his nachos himself!! Anyway...if you're at the game sometime, look for him....the suite is up in the corner...I would guess that it is number 32 or 34 or somewhere in there... Let's be honest folks, with all the trouble these investors (and apparently his own grandmother) is giving him... the basement boy deserves to kick his feet up at the game, right?
01/31/2008 12:05 AM by Go Jazz!!!
Okay Mr. Facts...you have to be either Doug or Brad....who in the hell actually believes that Doug Robinson was "laying it all on the line to try and save Atlas Marketing"...?? HAHAHAHAHAHA...that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard!!! Doug had nothing to lay on the line...I went and visited offices with him...he's nothing but a glorified AP!!! Doug loved the money and the frills as much as anyone else in that company!! Did you see what he drove? Did you see his home!?!? He was a terrible business man!! What kind of "president" of the company lets it go so far?!?! Have you looked over any of the bankruptcy filings???? They were borrowing money left and right...do you think Doug even knew how much Atlas was bringing in?!?! HAHAHAHAHA... Doug was so busy kissing Wade's ass that he didn't have time to even blink at Atlas... I kept hearing from the people who worked with Wade that Doug wanted so badly to be on Wade's executive team, that he convinced Wade to make Jeff Mendez the new President of Atlas, so that Doug could come hang out with the big dogs!! HAHAHAHA I can imagine that if you could get a hold of the financial documents for Atlas, you would be thinking twice about applauding any effort on Doug Robinson's part... being the captain of a sinking ship, he should have raised a red flag a LONG time ago! Could that company have borrowed so much money without his knowing about it?!?!? He knew about all of the credit card numbers being borrowed...and he knew that they couldn't pay that back!!! As long as he had his Aston Martin (well....let's be honest, Wade's Aston) and the big home....he was golden!! No...Doug Robinson is a snake just like Wade... he was one of Wade's biggest fans!! If Doug were such a saint, why is he sitting pretty over at Pinnacle, while tons of his reps from last summer still sit here with no way to get their back-end checks?!?! While Doug earns his huge salary and tries to forget that he shares in the responsibility of screwing those guys over... don't anyone come on here and try to make these people look like poor innocent victims.
"Go big or go home, dog!!!"
01/31/2008 12:26 AM by nice Facts, fact man!!
Oh boy...a quick google of "Wade Sleater" brings up tons of entertaining facts!!
f there was ever a version of Extreme Makeover: Door-to-Door Salesman, Wade Sleater could be the resident expert.
Sleater, CEO of Source XII, revolutionized door-to-door sales after he and Brandon Grover launched Atlas Marketing Group in 2002. Atlas trains college students how to sell DishNetwork and DirecTV satellite television equipment. The company�s revenues grew from $2.1 million in 2002 to $28 million in 2006, and are on track for $70 million this year. Atlas was ranked by the 2006 Inc. 500 list as the 143rd fastest-growing company in the nation.
Sleater says DirecTV and DishNetwork executives were stunned at the company�s success selling products without using any advertising or direct mail. It probably didn�t hurt, either, that Atlas is based in Provo, the mecca of door-to-door businesses due to the high percentage of returned Mormon missionaries with door-to-door experience.
Sleater sold pest control in between his junior and senior year of college and discovered a passion for principle-centered training. �I saw it as an opportunity for guys to prove what they were made of,� Sleater says. He graduated from the BYU Marriott School of Business with a highly praised business plan and began coaching salesmen about principles instead of sales, and values instead of dollars. With Atlas, for example, one day of the week is focused on an attribute like integrity or hard work. The sales managers aren�t allowed to talk about sales, only the attribute of the day.
Atlas� success led Sleater to start and invest in about 20 businesses that now employ more than 1,000 people. Source XII is the parent company of these businesses, or subsidiaries, including: Atlas Marketing Group; AMP Gym, an athletic and health training facility headed by former football star Dave Stroshine; ISM Films, a developer of online filmmaking courses; COPIA Ventures, a real estate development and marketing firm; and many others. Sleater�s role for each business varies from shareholder to CEO.
�Atlas, our personnel mill, allows us to plug recruits into all of the businesses I�ve created,� Sleater says. �People come to us not only for potential funding, but also for intellectual property to start a business. We call ourselves human capitalists. We�re leveraging human intelligence to create maximum production.�
What can�t you live without?
�My family and friends.�
Who is your biggest mentor?
�Dennis Webb.�
What�s your best way to relax?
�Watching �24� or �The Office.��
Boy...i wanted to make a comment...but that sweet little interview just says it all...doesn't it?
01/31/2008 12:42 AM by Umm...Wade, could i have some "potential funding"...and once you find some "human intelligence'...I'll take some of that too....
The maturity and productivity runneth over. Threats of violence from a cousin, posting cell phone numbers, and showing how to send anonymous text messages. It is amazing what people will do and say when they don't have to take accountability. Anonymity reveals the soul...it ain't looking too pretty for many of you.
Kind of reminds of the mote and beam parable.
01/31/2008 01:27 AM by Take Luck!
hey Take Luck- what are you even doing in a place like this? Who are you, the morality police?!?!? You honestly take time to slap people on the wrists here for doing these petty little things (which are absolutely petty, don't get me wrong)...when you are missing out on the big picture!!??
Answer me this about "accountability": What does Wade Sleater and any of his crew know about accountability? They are accountable for taking other people's money (granted, these were very stupid people to invest money with anything Wade had going on)...and spending it on multi-million dollar homes, rediculous cars, watches that cost more than my life, wanna-be high-roller lifestyles...and pretending like the housing market or some other lame excuse is the reason things went sour. Sleater lived it up on other people's savings and retirement, and now that he can't pay them back...he's running to bankruptcy court (being advised by his good friend, Rick Koerber...who's been through this before, and knows how to get out of it and back up on top ASAP). Accountability?!?! Do you think Wade is going to pay back the $30 million he owes to all the people invested with him. The fact that he took every penny he could in the end, and paid off all of his personal credit cards...instead of paying back investors leads me to believe that Wade doesn't feel accountable to stick to his word at all. He has been playing the victim all along.
This kind of stuff ruins lives, just because of someone's greed gone over the top. Don't come on here acting like silly blog posts and name calling holds a candle to what Wade and his pals should be held responsible for. Wade chose to lower the bar much lower than this level... If you're gonna come on here wagging your finger like some old lady...at least be productive about it!!
And while you're at it, don't quote Jesus... You're as anonymous as the rest of them here...and we all see who you are, even with the beams in our eyes!!
01/31/2008 01:43 AM by Take your luck and get!!
Wade, (Take Luck): Enough with the productivity/accountability. You're such a beak-nosed, droopy-eyed, dipsh*t. You and your sister look like you have been drugged...are you sure Sonny wasn't drunk when you two were hatched. Yes, Jordan you look like a friggin Freak!! You and Wade!!!!
"Anonymity reveals the soul..." Then why don't you tell us who you are Mr. Anonymity. (Take Luck)
01/31/2008 02:57 AM by K-Swiss
Thank you for the exclamation to my point.
If you really knew Wade, you'd know this wasn't him.
01/31/2008 08:39 AM by Take Luck!
Okay...quit with the "If you really knew Wade" crap... what are we, in like 10th grade?!?! Are you saying that those who know the true character of Wade Sleater would know something from the posts here that would reveal which ones are his and not!!???!!?? Don't be retarded...of course, Wade graduated college..he could string together a few words that might not sound exactly how he speaks....
It's very obvious that Wade is on here, and that he reads and posts. If it isn't Wade, who cares?!?! "Wade" can be code for anyone who is still so naive that they believe that Wade actually has principles and that he's a victim here (that is such a small group- Wade, Sonny, Jordan, Shanda... anyone else? Please tell me that neither of the Fullmer boys are dumb enough to still be singing Wade's praises....you guys are much smarter than that, aren't you?!?!)
So, the point is, is that "Take Luck", may or may not be Wade...but it's someone that's still brainwashed by him...so we can refer to Wade, and those of like mind, generically as "Wade".
the one point"Take Luck" has, is that the name "Take Luck" comes from a comedy routine, and I'm not sure that Wade has the wit to think of something like that... my guess is that he would post under something lame like "The Facts"... which one of Wade's minions likes Brian Regan......??
01/31/2008 09:22 AM by You too!!
Wade,
Please call me I need to talk about Jon and how I am going to break the news to him.
Jordan Sleater-shields
01/31/2008 10:25 AM by Jordan SLEATER-shields
"Anonymity reveals the soul"....what the hell is that supposed to mean?!?! You're a philosopher now?!?! Anonymity does not reveal anyone's soul!!! Stop saying gay things just to sound smart!! Anonymity means I want to say something, but don't want to deal with the issues that would come up with my name being attached to it... that's why you don't tag your posts with your name either. If anonymity reveals the soul, is my soul not revealed when I use my name...??
Hard times reveal people's souls. True colors shine when things get tough. The Wade and the people who still stand by him, all 4 of you, have your "souls" hanging out where we all can see. Has anyone gotten any sort of apology from Wade? Has any of you ever heard him take responsibility for anything?!?
Big words and big talk don't make you smart... get on here and defend Wade, or leave those alone who have been hurt and scammed by him while they let off some steam.
01/31/2008 10:30 AM by bless my soul!!
Good Morning Wade: I have some pretty big news I'm going to post on here this weekend. Everyone, you're going to want to check back because I'm going to post some very helpful information, and something Wade has been hoping will stay undiscussed. I need to go up to SLC today and Friday to bring it full circle but you are going to FREAK Wade when you see this little nugget.
If the investigators are watching this blog for infor: This is going to be a bomb shell.
Wade, you just met you worst week to date!!!!!
01/31/2008 10:31 AM by Gorka
It seems there is a war or "Who knows more". It is difficult to see the whole picture, for sure, but just because no one know the whole story doesn't mean that it is wrong to accuse people like Wade of wrong-doing. Sure "innocent until proven guilty" is a solid principle for the judicial system in the USA, but this is the court of the public. If we were to simply say "We can't say anything until all the facts were out" then we might as well be attornies and judges.....So let the acusations fly!!!
With that said, I do know a thing or two and I'm going to accuse Wade and other Atlasites (read Doug Robinsion, Jeff Mendez, Ryan Sleater, Brandon Gover) of something.
It seems Wade has a knack for over-inflating the value of things. Not only did he inflate the value of real estate he inflated the value of Dish Network advertising. Follow me on this one. Dish Network allows a satellite dealer to accrue an advertising account with Dish Network that builds by $60 for every account a dealer sells. This account is used to reimburse a dealer up to 60% when approved advertising is paid for by a dealer. So if a dealer sells one account then he can then go out and spend $100 for a "mailer campaign" and Dish will pay the dealer $60 as a reimbursement.
So Atlas Marketing sells over 30,000 accounts and builds an advertising reiumbursement account with Dish Network of around $2 million (this is called a co-op account in the satellite world). Wade creates a straw company (he's good at this) that does the advertising for Atlas Marketing. Generally Wade did mailer campaigns. A single mailer costs about $.25 to do. Wade would claim that his mailers cost him $.60 per mailer. This worked because he was also controlling the advertising company. So he would send out 3 million mailers at a cost of $1.8 million and expect Dish Network to reimbursement of around $1 million. The thing is the mailer campaign of 3 million mailers only cost Wade $750K. Not just that be Atlas Marketing reaped a number of "free" satellite sales. So they essentially stole around $1 million every year from Dish Network after their summer selling season.
Kind of hard to follow I know but very fraudulent to say the least. Dish finally caught on last year, but just told them to stop doing it.
How do I know this? I'm the one who perpetrated the whole thing (on the accounting side)!!!! Wade told me it was totally legal and ethical and I was stupid enough to believe him. With all the other crazy accounting going on I didn't have a problem entering all of the transactions in quickbooks.
Oh yeah....I have a backup file of Atlas Marketing's quickbooks. I'm happy to hand it out to whoever wants it.
01/31/2008 11:56 AM by I know a thing or two
To: I know a thing or two
I would love to see a copy of that. How can I get a back up?
01/31/2008 12:27 PM by Very Interested
Okay...now, that's the kind of stuff that needs to be brought out in the open!! I was hoping that one of you guys would step up and let some of this out. You are exactly right, when you say that nobody really knows the whole story. That's because Wade is so good at keeping things from even his closest friends and associates. I heard from so many people along the way, who worked closer to Wade than I did ( I was just a lowly sales rep)... who could smell something fishy like that happening, but didn't know enough to say anything about it.
There will be people wondering why this should be brought up on a blog about real-estate fraud... could one of you tie that together for us better than I can. From what I understand, this information is VERY important, because money was pulled in from Atlas marketing to fund Wade's other projects...eg Real Estate (the Source Twelve Real Estate, I think?)... it said in an article posted earlier here that Atlas Marketing was projected to bring in over 20 million in 2007...i think....so where did all of that go?!?! What were Atlas Marketing's expenses?
What was Atlas Capital? If I understand right, there was 20-30 million brought in by investors on that side...where did it all go? There has got to be a link between all of this. I would go in to Wade's office regularly and ask for him, and he wasn't there...his employees didn't know where he was...and sometimes he was just behind a closed door (I was never actually invited in to his office, but I hear that he had marble-floors put in his office, and no one elses, just to be sure everyone knew who was the top-dawg)- what was he doing all day? What did Wade do for business and where did all this money go?
Please, someone with more information from the inside, step up. There are people out there who know a lot on the accounting side, and a lot on the Real-estate side. Get this stuff posted. Create more blogs... make sure that anyone with a piece of the puzzle puts it up for all to see, so we can get the bigger picture.
Do you want Wade to be able to do this again, to more people?!? You know he will if he can....every night, just before you go to sleep, just imagine him in his fancy cars on his way out to "produce" all over someone's life savings .... don't let him get a hold of another penny!!
Post that Quickbooks file...post memos...post meeting notes etc!! Let there please be some transparancy finally!!
01/31/2008 12:35 PM by that's what I'm talking about!!
Not to defend Wade, but this scenario has nothing to do with the rest of the stuff here. What you witnessed is common sense. He probably charged himself what any company would charge him to do the mailers. He got smart and started his own company to do it. Many companies are doing just this, they break down each of their individual components, and make them all be profitable and pass on charges to the next segment down the line. This inflates the cost to consumers because there are more parts that need to be profitable, instead of the whole in general. It may seem dishonest, but in reality it is the most honest thing, it says that every component/aspect of the company needs to be profitable. Dish network did not do anything because Wade did not do anything wrong (here), he just went against the spirit of the program as far as dish was concerned. A company is allowed to outsource it's necessities, and yes, still make a profit off of it. To say you can't make a profit on something is anti-business, and anit- American, and just plain stupid, people arent in business to be a non-profit, profitability is what funds your paycheck. Aside from this whole scandel, business is still business, to every business there are risks, but there are also advantages, this is just one of them. Sometimes employees see only the advantages, and cannot understand the need for every component to be profitable, it's called overhead, and it's called getting ahead, and it's not a crime. Who know's, dish probably owns the company that makes satellite dishes, and makes a profit from making them, and then from selling them to themselves!!!!! If there smart they own at least part of the company that makes the satellite, they own the company the makes the nuts and bolts, and the motherboards in the reciever!!!!
I don't understand why wade would sacrifice so much security in a profitable business like dish,by investing heavily in so much risk of real estate. Not saying I wouldnt have done it, but I wouldnt have put all my eggs in one basket, obviously it's the real estate eggs that brought him down, and it's the real estate eggs that he will be remembered for. But in the storm of scrutiny, let's not condemn business, or being smart in business. In business, if you are not making a profit, you are loosing money, and if your loosing money you're out of business.
I have been in business for myself, and went out of business, and some my employees probably thought I was a dumb a** for not making it profitable. This is just to say that you can't please employees like you, if one is smart and makes money you call them criminal's and cheaters, if they loose you call them stupid. Are you like 16 or something, go out and try it for yourself and report back here in 5 years, lets see how noble you are! Because there is not much noble about business, it's a dog eat dog world, and you have to fight for survival while employees like you get to play arm-chair quarterback! You would think different when it is you a** signed on the dotted line, and there are people depending on you from your employee's, customers, suppiers, banks, investors, and finially, your own family. As far as your liability, don't worry, there was nothing illegal in the whole thing, you just got exposed to a business strategy, if you feel so dirty about it, go to work for a non-profit or something. You're like a communist faggot or something, you make me sick!
01/31/2008 01:10 PM by That's business
And by the way....Just in case noone has told you, there is no santa clause magically making your christmas toys every year, your mom and dad bought them, and to eat that great burger, cattle were killed, the meat did not magically appear in celophane at your local butcher. get a clue!
01/31/2008 01:19 PM by
If you read my posts, I haven't defended Wade...he can do that himself. I am only trying to restore some civility. I just don't view threats of physical harm, encouraging harassment, and making fun of people's looks as being above the belt. The issues can be discussed without the name calling, threats and harassment. This will lead to a much more mature and productive discussion.
To those who didn't understand: Anonimity reveals the soul because people say and do things that they wouldn't normally when there isn't a chance that they will be caught. Anonymity creates a lack of accountability. What people do when there is no accountability is where you find their true character--thus revealing the soul. For some on the blog, not all, it ain't too pretty right now. Fortunately, I believe in a person's ability to change, and I hope that those that need to will. At least I hope that we are allowed to change, or I am screwed.
01/31/2008 02:47 PM by Take Luck!
Take luck, get over it and move on, were on to bigger and better like spanking the pinko punk who is using this parade against fraud on the public to critisize making a profit.
01/31/2008 02:53 PM by get over it!
to: That's Business
Don't be short-sighted...the point that you make is valid. Of course all businesses have overhead, of course they all do all they can to be profitable. That's business... the cool part about Wade and Atlas Marketing...is that they were really good at bringing money in...whether it was scrupulous or not is in question, but for the most part legal... That's not the issue at hand. Are you aware that most of the sales reps from this summer, who earned much of that money that Atlas brough in have still not been paid a good chunk of their back-end checks? So, there was big, extra smart business plans in place to bring in the big bucks, squeeze every last penny out of the process etc....and Wade must have been some business genious to set this up.... and all of that money went where? If you can't even pay your own sales guys...you can't cover your own overhead (which, again..please, someone post some numbers and facts....I know that that rediculous Atlas Awards show cost upwards of $35k...and that was just chump change...) ... something shady is going on. To bring it back , you have to understand how intertwined the whole system was... the money from Atlas marketing was being mingled with the Real-Estate projects, investors were being brought in for these projects in not the most legal of ways, and on top of that... they were using bogus appraisals, skimming off of equity loans etc... and all of this while they were high-rolling in their million dollar homes and big cars.
My point here, is that there are a lot of dots that need to be connected, and I invite everyone to come out and connect them. Get it all out in the open.
Take Luck "I haven't defended Wade...he can do that himself"....no he can't!! 1. He has no excuse except for self-interest and greed 2. He does not feel responsible for any of this or any remorse....he just feels bad for himself!!
And stop with that Anonymity (check your spell ing on that one) baloney... it's not that clear-cut. An anonymous forum is a good place to get some honest facts out in the open. I agree that there should be an end to the lame, hollow threats...but if people need to express their feelings by calling people names that are well deserved.... by all means, let them!! Wade took their money and bought toys with them and lived a high-roller life... if the shoe fits... if not, Wade, come and defend your character!! or are you too busy out there, building the kingdom ??
01/31/2008 03:13 PM by quit whining...
I've noticed some people talking about Doug Robinson lately. Let's not be so hard on Doug. I'm sure he already knows that he's a joke. He ran around looking like an ass clown, blowing all the companies money on consumables, all the while telling everone else to be a producer. What a hypocrite! He helped Wade and the rest of the club blow all the cash on themselves and completely destroyed a perfectly good business. Running a great business straight into the ground, shafting hundreds that worked for you along the way is not an easy thing to do. In fact, there are probably only a handful of people in the world incompetent enough to pull of such a task. But this wasn't difficult for you at all was it Doug. You made it look easy. So congratulation to you Doug, YOU DID IT!
But it's not your fault, right Doug? How could you be held responsible for what happened over at Atlas? After all, you were only the President of the entire company!
But again, let's not be so hard on Doug. We should blame Wade for even putting someone as dumb as you in that position. Although we all know that running the business wasn't really your responsibility. Your only real duty was to walk behind Wade and keep his nuts warm in your mouth. That was one job you did very well.
01/31/2008 03:29 PM by Doug Robinson is a JOKE!
I couldn't have said it any better .....
01/31/2008 03:36 PM by mmm....warm Wade nuts.....
I was actually wondering what part Doug's brother, Brad had in all of this. He worked with Wade, didn't he? I don't think it was with Atlas, but I do remember that he was some sort of legal advisor. What a job!! Legal advisor to Wade Sleater??!?!!??
I would love to hear what he has to say, or what people know he was up to. Did he advise Wade on these shady real-estate deals? What kind of responsibility did he have? Did he advise his brother when running Atlas into the ground? Did he advise on the investment side... Atlas Capital, Opes Capital, Factor Capital....??? Can anyone shed light on what he and Wade were up to there?
01/31/2008 03:44 PM by he's not heavy....he's my brother
I know that there is someone reading here who knows specifically what Wade and his buddies did that could be considered illegal. Could you post specific projects, investment schemes, etc that they could be investigated for.
Also, from what I've heard, Wade is filing for Bankruptcy...is that going to keep him out of trouble? I don't really understand how that works...
01/31/2008 03:46 PM by not very legal savvy
To the poster above about Doug,
I've heard from many different people that after Atlas tanked and couldn't pay its employees Doug quit and went to another company, but would only work with that other company if the sales reps from Atlas that were out their back-ends were given jobs and some of the money Atlas owed them. Can you say if this is true or not? Because if it is, it sounds like he did own up to some responsibility and stayed loyal to as many people as he could.
I know Wade has used this as an excuse for everything going up in flames (Doug "selling the company out from under him") I don't really care to hear the argument about that, b/c I know the sequence of events. Atlas had already tanked, and stopped paying people (firing them essentially), what Doug did was AFTER that. From the looks of things it sound like Wade is mad that his former employees were taken care of--making him look all the more bad. What kind of person thinks this way? I guess he wanted his financial house to collapse with more people trapped inside.
01/31/2008 03:50 PM by .
We all agree on the general issue. What we need to do it be specific about the outcome we want to see. I am sure these people feel the enormous pressure being brought to bear by this blog, and people in general. Let's use this pressure to force the truth. Therefore, anyone involved in perpetrating this scheme costing millions of dollars, turn yourself in! If you believe in doing the right thing as you have apparantly taught, then you know it's the only noble thing left to do. It's time to pay the piper, there is no way out for you, you must accept the consequences. Stop the pain, stop hiding, do the right thing, and admit your guilt! It's the only way for you and everyone you scammed to move on!
Everyone, join together and post your request for these people to turn themselves in, and let the truth come out. Let's not waste our all our energy trying to find out what they can voluntarily just admit!
After it's all said and done, I believe that whether or not people get repaid, the truth must be told.
Everyone now!
Turn yourself in!!!!
01/31/2008 04:01 PM by Turn yourself in!!!!
To the poster above...
you're getting closer to the truth...but it seems that you don't have your sequences all lined up exactly.
Wade was president and CEO of Atlas, and is responsible for its downfall on practically every level...including the part where he walked away to bigger and better things (illegal investments/real-estate), and let Doug- who, in his own defense, has no clue about business- run Atlas. That being said, Doug was/is just as self-absorbed and money hungry as any of Wade's people. He was Wade's little protege, and privy to all of Wade's little plans. I challenge anyone to give an actual example of Doug putting his neck out on the line to save anyone's job or paycheck... He has sales reps going without back-ends because DOUG authorized rediculous vacations, incentives, car bonuses, the $35k Atlas Awards crap-show, etc...as well as to finance his own watches, cars, clothes etc.... My good friend is owed at least $3000, and can't get it. That money was already spent on crap. Doug took the job at Pinnacle because they were the highest bidder!! That whole BS about Doug facilitating the payment of back-ends is NOT TRUE. The only way they could get any money was to sign on with that other sales company and basically re-earn that money.
What Doug "did" was NOT after the fact...he helped create the monster that Atlas became...driven by the lust of a bunch of young dudes after expensive cars and big paychecks...he rode that wave, and loved being held up as the poster-boy. He preached all of the "princples" and lived none of them, just like Wade...that's why the company imploded so easily (especially with all of the money going into Wade's other projects, instead of being pumped back in to the company....and Doug was partners with Wade and an investor in Wade's fund ....so it was in his self-interest to keep the money flowing in that direction).... Doug was just dumb, and basically helped set fire to the ship he was the captain of. He saw a big rescue boat, and jumped at the first chance....don't be fooled in to thinking he has a heart of gold, just because he was throwing a few life-savers at the burning ship as he sailed off into the sunset!!!
You're right, though about Wade in the last paragraph...just be sure to give credit to all of the players. Wade did not do this alone.... He was just smart enough to only involve each person in a certain area....put all the pieces of the puzzle together, and you'll have the whole story.....
01/31/2008 04:13 PM by getting warmer....
To: turn yourself in
I completely agree with you in theory...but my feeling is that you have never met anyone like Wade Sleater, Brad Kitchen, Rick Koerber, Rex Wheeler etc..... You don't understand...these men have made a living out of manipulating people and the truth. You have obviously never heard Rick Koerber talk about principles and quoting scripture to promote his investments. You have never heard Wade Sleater claim that his only interest is to "build the kingdom".... there was a time when they realised what BS that is...I have seen Koerber's mercedes... and Sleater's fleet of high-end vehicles....they have no interest other than getting their paws on more and more money (just look at what they do with the money when they get it!!! It's not going to charity!!!!) ....
The part that you don't get, is that the people they have manipulated the best, are themselves!! They actually feel like they are victims!!! They actually feel alright about trying to fight their way out of this. They aren't embarrassed!!! They have twisted things around so far in their minds, that their conscience does not trigger anymore, as long as they, personally, are not harmed. Do you know that Sleater was on an all-out family vacation at Disney World, with a bunch of friends- he paid for all of it- when his company fell apart?!?!? Do you not think that he saw that coming??? Don't you see the problem about asking a guy to turn himself in-who has taken so many people's money, who personally owes millions of dollars to friends and family- and when he sees all of this coming down, instead of trying to get all that money back to those people... he starts spending as fast as he can? He wanted to live it up as much as he could till the very end!!! The poster above is right... Sleater still has a suite at the Jazz games...and is not embarrased to show up!!! Koerber still parks his silver Mercedes proudly in front of his compound in south Provo.
These people still go to church, they still look their kids in the eyes, still pet little puppies etc....and that's not enough to spark a change of conscience. Right and wrong are such warped concepts to them...you cannot appeal to that kind of reason with them. With these guys, we're going to have to get all the evidence out against them, and then people who know how to fight, need to stand up and lead the rest of us....
Let's get practical and stard making things happen...just be aware of the type of person you're dealing with ...
01/31/2008 04:35 PM by to mr. turn yourself in....
To: turn yourself in
I completely agree with you in theory...but my feeling is that you have never met anyone like Wade Sleater, Brad Kitchen, Rick Koerber, Rex Wheeler etc..... You don't understand...these men have made a living out of manipulating people and the truth. You have obviously never heard Rick Koerber talk about principles and quoting scripture to promote his investments. You have never heard Wade Sleater claim that his only interest is to "build the kingdom".... there was a time when they realised what BS that is...I have seen Koerber's mercedes... and Sleater's fleet of high-end vehicles....they have no interest other than getting their paws on more and more money (just look at what they do with the money when they get it!!! It's not going to charity!!!!) ....
The part that you don't get, is that the people they have manipulated the best, are themselves!! They actually feel like they are victims!!! They actually feel alright about trying to fight their way out of this. They aren't embarrassed!!! They have twisted things around so far in their minds, that their conscience does not trigger anymore, as long as they, personally, are not harmed. Do you know that Sleater was on an all-out family vacation at Disney World, with a bunch of friends- he paid for all of it- when his company fell apart?!?!? Do you not think that he saw that coming??? Don't you see the problem about asking a guy to turn himself in-who has taken so many people's money, who personally owes millions of dollars to friends and family- and when he sees all of this coming down, instead of trying to get all that money back to those people... he starts spending as fast as he can? He wanted to live it up as much as he could till the very end!!! The poster above is right... Sleater still has a suite at the Jazz games...and is not embarrased to show up!!! Koerber still parks his silver Mercedes proudly in front of his compound in south Provo.
These people still go to church, they still look their kids in the eyes, still pet little puppies etc....and that's not enough to spark a change of conscience. Right and wrong are such warped concepts to them...you cannot appeal to that kind of reason with them. With these guys, we're going to have to get all the evidence out against them, and then people who know how to fight, need to stand up and lead the rest of us....
Let's get practical and stard making things happen...just be aware of the type of person you're dealing with ...
01/31/2008 04:37 PM by to mr. turn yourself in....
In response to the response calling me a communist faggot, I'm calling Atlasite on that one. I insinuated that the advertising scheme was illegal....I actaully don't think it was since it was all governed by the laws of Dish. Was it fraudulent? Dish sure seemed to think so. They made a personal visit to investigate the "Advertising company", they changed their advertising reimbursement rules after the incident, and I personally heard Doug R. lying to Dish executives telling them that nobody in the Atlas realm had any interest in the advertising company. As for the mark up on the mailer campaign, it was excessive to say the least. Paying $.60 per mailer is like paying $100K for a chevy corsica (or how about $2million for a $1million house in canyon cove :) ).
I've got more dirt I'll slowly divulge. It's funny to see the apologists out there....."Don't accuse Wade for sopmehting you don't know all the facts on" or "You guys are just mad you lost your money withWade" ....this is what blogs are for. Those guys are idiots.....isin't that clear yet?
01/31/2008 04:42 PM by I know a thing or two
I totally agree with the comments about Wade and other idiots convincing themselves that they are the victims. I've seen this happen before, they really feel like it's not their fault. Great post.
01/31/2008 04:45 PM by I know a thing or two
More power to you !! Keep them coming... there was a lot of crap going on there and the people responsible for most of it are still doing really well... this kind of stuff will happen again and again...unless you blow the whistle on them....
blog it up, my friend, blog it up!!! If all the Wade apologists want to whine about accountability...this is the kind of stuff that keeps people accountable!! Why do you think they did all the things they did....because they thought they could get away with it, without people saying anything!!! Don't let that be true!!! Something big is gonna come out...and your piece of the truth is going to make someone's life that much better....
01/31/2008 04:46 PM by tell me a thing or two
Good cop/bad cop.
Turn yourself in!!!!!!!
01/31/2008 05:04 PM by Turn yourself in!!!
oh come on dude....do you really think that Wade is going to come on here...after all he's heard and all he's done....and magically read your thoroughly pursuasive :) post.... and say to himself: "You know, this guy is right... I've never really thought about turning myself in... Shanda!! I'm headed down to the station...it's time, this guy on this blog finally convinced me!!"
Haha...are you living in a cartoon??? Get down to business and make things happen!!
01/31/2008 05:09 PM by cowboy up!!
Oh this is too rich!! Keep it coming. I wanted to point you to a forum that my buddy just set up... it's to get everything off your chest about Wade, the other dudes there, Atlas Marketing, Atlas Capital etc... get on there...if you're owed money, if you know something that stinks etc.... Let's get all former investors, customers, employees, sales reps, execs involved...get it out in the open.
http://forums.treemedia.com/fb/forumdisplay.php?f=67
Oh, but please don't let this one die either... way too entertaining!!!
01/31/2008 05:16 PM by more fun!!
Don't be so sure of yourselves and assume he won't. People come clean about their crimes all the time, how do you think the police do it, they imply they already have the guy, he comes clean about the rest and signs a confession. Besides, he might want to end all of this, and the only way to do that is fight through this storm and comeout on the other side unconvicted but still ruined by public opinion, or justify oneself by ultimately doing the right thing.
I don't care if you keep uncovering whatever you can, but don't begrudge my attempt to point the way for these guys to do the right thing. Do I believe they will because I said so? No, they will if they are honorable, and there's no harm in asking them to be. Are you trying to tell me that turning themselves in is not the right thing for them to do? It sounds to me as if you just want the beatings to continue. That is fine for Wade, but it doesnt do much for those who have been damaged by all of this, they want closure.
Turn yourself in!!!
01/31/2008 05:30 PM by Turn yourself in!!!
to: turn yourself in
Don't get your story mixed up there!! No one said that turning themselves in, and admitting responsibility wouldn't be the right thing...it absolutely is!! What I am trying to tell you, is that you need to understand the reality of how these people think... there is nothing to admit in their minds... you will not get them on their own testimonies...are you not catching on?!!??!
No one is begrudging you your little mission, keep it up...but this is a quote from you "Let's not waste our all our energy trying to find out what they can voluntarily just admit!".... you just keep squirting your little water gun at the blazing inferno if you want....but don't say that getting the truth out is a waste of time or energy. You just let me know how things turn out....
Don't get confused about why we are doing this either.... you sound like a Wade apologetic... this is not about "beating " anyone up!! Bringing things to light and revealing unjustices is not beating people up...its' giving them something to own up to and be responsible for. Is that you, Sonny? Have you just had a change of heart, and want Wade to turn himself in, but don't want anyone to be mean to him on the way?
Go turn him in your self!!
01/31/2008 06:42 PM by silly wabbit....
Wade, is working on selling insurance with Foundations Insurance with a man by the name of Darron Miller. Look them up. You should be able to talk to Wade there. Ryan Sleater and Jordan Shields his brother and sister are working with him as well.
01/31/2008 07:00 PM by
yes, I said waste ALL our energy. This does not imply that persuing them is futile (in fact I said that there was no way out for them), it implies that it is not the only way to bring closure to this. You sir, are not understanding my intentions, it is not I who am changing my story. I did not say to only persue asking them to turn themselves in, just that people could make an appeal for them to do the right thing. I do not like that you come off as if I am nieve. It's not nieve to state the right thing to do. The problem with your way only, is that it just gives them ammo to justify themselves against their distractors. People asking them to do the right thing, gives them no ammo.
As I said before, i think everyone agrees there was fraud, were all saying the same thing. This blog can continue tearing them to shreds, or they can stop it all by turning themselves in, either way, it's up to them how it turns out.
01/31/2008 07:05 PM by turn yourself in!!!
I am looking for people that had invested with a "Holding Company" that the holding company actually signed the PPM and are getting any payments from them, please let me know by posting on this web site. The holding company I invested with did not sign the PPM, so I just have a few questions. Anybody HELP please?
01/31/2008 07:14 PM by Mike
well...i was taking you seriously, until you accused me of calling you "nieve"....which must mean you know spanish well.... because "nieve" is the spanish word for snow......and I'm not sure why I would call you snow....
maybe you meant, "naive"...now that's a word I would call you!! lol- you are naive, and I get a feeling you've never spoken to these guys, or heard someone ask them "do you think you'll go to jail" and watch them with the straightest of faces reply "for what?"...
anyway, like I said, you keep doing your thing, just don't you try to silence anyone...this is what will get us somewhere...
Oh...and why do you assume to call me "Sir"?!?! Why would you assume I am male??? If I had to guess, you are a female, and I could guess your name in 3 shots!! :)
let's call a truce, and join forces....we can work together to fight this evil!!
01/31/2008 07:30 PM by buenos dias, senorita "turn yourself in"
Hey mike...depending on what you're looking for, there might be a way to help you out.... what is the name of the Holding company or the fund you invested in? Who was the PPM with or signed by...???
01/31/2008 07:33 PM by I like Mike
Oh, just taking a walk down memory lane....stumbled upon one of my favorite old sites http://www.theatlaschoice.com/
check out the sweet photo gallery, go to the end and look for some fun pics of Wade and all the Atlas big dogs at their last awards show (which was a joke!)
Check out the videos, they're classic!!
oh..and "contact us" has some phone numbers that could help get info....
01/31/2008 07:55 PM by memories....
To I like Mike, I Invested with Vonco Holdings, the PPm was with Founders Capital. Thanks for responding.
01/31/2008 08:37 PM by mike
A couple of notes on the Sleaters selling insurance.
Wade's license has just become active to sell property and casualty insurance. Surely he is working on the life part. Looks like he's going back to the roots of Engenuity; cash value life.
https://secure.utah.gov/cas/search?page=agentDetails&id=1351482
Ryan's license has just become active as well.
Here is Founders Insurance. Notice another one of the agents listed there. I thought Gunderson was trying to run away from these guys?
https://secure.utah.gov/cas/search?page=organizationDetails&id=15396
01/31/2008 08:39 PM by
Ok,
That website is the best post here in a long time. WOW! Thanks for sharing. I wish I would have seen that ridiculous propaganda last year. I would have had a better idea of what type of person Sleater is. At least now I know what he looks like. LOVE the vid of him answering to the "press corps". What an ego maniac. I am sorry for all of you (seems like a lot of young people who were probably sales people for him) on here. Some of you have been robbed blind of your time and money and I am sure you are angry. One thing I can tell you (I wish I never forget it myself) if it sounds too good to be true IT IS!
I believed Wheeler and that is how I got mixed up in this thing. I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and according to some legal opinions I may have unwittingly committed mortgage fraud (the last point I am not sure about but I am sure I will know soon). I am just ashamed of trusting someone who obvioulsy played with the facts and had no regard for the truth. As I have been putting 2 and 2 together, I realized how stupid I was. NOT ANY MORE!
I for one would like to get back to the original intent of this blog. I understand the frustration from some of you. When you are betrayed and downright stolen from, you want revenge. I would ask you to think about the lessons learned and don't forget them. With that being said thanks for the link, great for some laughs.
P.S. For those that worked there, tell me. Did you have to wear a goatee to qualify or what?!
01/31/2008 08:55 PM by Poor Sap
Poor Sap!! Good to see that you are still here!! I am glad you enjoyed that. From what I saw when I went in to the office...you basically had to grow a goatee if you were under 30 , and losing your hair...for the rest, it was not manditory.
I appreciate your wanting to stay on topic, which I think we would all echo. I would just caution you from deterring anyone from posting. There is no one simple angle to this story. You have a great part here on the blog...your story is real-estate based...you dealt with frauds... basically the other sides of those coins are what else made these men frauds. There was an absolute connection between how they lived their lives, what they spent their money on, all of the straw corporations they set up, and the real-estate deals they made... screwing people like you over. I would invite any and everyone to continue to paint a full picture, and encourage people like you to glean what you need to build your case against these men. We want you to fight and bring them to justice...you have the strongest case.
So, with that being said... I say: information is power....either keep quiet and empower Wade, - you might as well go purchase insurance from him!! - or speak up, and make sure this doesn't happen all over again!
01/31/2008 09:05 PM by goatee
Good point. I agree knowlege is power and in no way am I trying to deter posters on here. Don't think I could if I wanted to anyway! Good point about the hair thing. Amazing how folks think if you have a cool goatee, that no one will notice you are bald.
01/31/2008 09:16 PM by Poor Sap
I like you, Poor Sap...you seem like a nice guy. I've got your back here on this blog any day :)
So, for our information, what is the situation with Mr. Sleater/Wheeler when it comes to your home? Are they going to be held responsible for anything? What is happening/going to happen there? I also think it would be enlightening for you to kind of post the story of how this happened, so that people can be aware of it, and not let it happen to them. Wade is apparently still making money over at his insurance place, and it will only be a matter of time before he has enough money to start conning people again.
Are you being left hanging? Are there things we can do to help your case?
01/31/2008 09:27 PM by fan of Poor Sap
Thought this was pretty funny. Any question of the relationship between Sleater, Gunderson and Koerber? They quote Gordon B. Hinckley, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Les McGuire. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqNg7S8Ncnk
01/31/2008 09:36 PM by
The video that Poor Sap is talking about is right on the front page, on the left, click on Doug Robinson's face under "Join the Team"... this video is more revealing about the real character of Wade Sleater than pretty much anything out there. You see, this isn't who Wade Sleater really is... that is the person he really, really wanted to be. So, he went out, and used other people's money to build a world in which he was (at least in his mind) an absolute celebrity. That video is his dream...and with your help, Poor Sap, and help from other people like you, he was able to finance that dream. The sad thing is, is that all of those people in that video are his employees...and in one way or another, they pretty much kissed his ass all the time just like that. Why? Because they wanted it as bad as he did...
The point is, is that if you can see the whole, big picture... you can see what really happened. Looking at the whole picture, you would never, ever believe someone like Wade, or any of his cronies or partners if they ever told you "I didn't know what was going on...I thought it was all legal"... no one is stupid enough to believe that. If you can get the whole picture, Wade will never get away with blaming all of this on the sub-prime crisis or on other people's poor investment choices, and just walk away into the sunset to sell insurance.... He knew what he was doing. The people around him knew what he was doing, and they wanted in on it... does he just get away to do it all over again? He will, if he can. He hasn't changed a bit...
01/31/2008 09:42 PM by The Atlas Choice
Fan, thanks for your comments. I am still working through the properties I "inherited" from Wheeler and Sleater. At one point Gunderson was on here saying he looked forward to "inheriting" Wheeler's properties he got stuck with (how many and for how much I don't know). I called BS on that when I asked him point blank if he wanted my properties since he so looked forward to owning more real estate. He dodged that one like a bullett which said a thing or two about his character and honesty. I am dealing with this day to day and will post when there is an update.
Choice, what you say is so true. As I have said before, I never met Wade. Wheeler vouched for him and I trusted him. Turns out he is not much different than Wade as far as leaving others holding the bag, so to speak. My fault for trusting. Lucky for him that most of his "investors" are not here. I think many things would be said about him similar to Sleater and Koerber. Funny thing is that he would bash Koerber a lot about how he was going to jail and he was in trouble, I distinctly remember a conversation Rex and I had when I was visiting Utah in September and I was remarking about that obnoxious billboard on the interstate. If it is still there, pay more attention to the Dave Ramsey billboard right by it, that one will definitely take you down the right path. Ramsey thinks debt is the root of all evil, Wheeler, Koerber, Sleater, et. al thrive on it (usually other people's debt like mine).
01/31/2008 09:59 PM by Poor Sap
OH... I cannot tell you how much that Producer Revolution video makes my blood boil. That's just it...it's all these young dudes trying to make a quick buck. Are you actually retarded?!?! They charge you money, so that they can tell you how you should think...and it obviously works...because they are all basically running from the law now.
The Producer Revolution is the biggest crock. The only truth to it, is the fact that there are producers and there are consumers... the rest is absolute BS. Wade Sleater and Rick Koerber are two of the biggest whining consumers on this planet. What in the world have they EVER produced?!?!??! Scamming, scheming, schmoozing and all that doesn't produce a thing!! The problem with these guys, is that they don't understand that it's good, honest, hard work that will produce....and that is the only way. The rest will hurt you or someone else along the way, EVERY TIME!!!
And this is why I like the anonymity of this place, like the guy above...i can say things like this: DAMN them for being so pompous to quote President Hinckley. President Hinckley warned against the exact practices they were scamming- second mortgages, debt financing etc. Can you imagine President Hinckley's reaction if any of these fools were to pitch him their schemes?!?!?! President Hinckley was a man who stood for good, honest, hard work, no flash, no high-rolling, honesty and doing good to your fellow man. Rick Koerber, Wade Sleater, And Garret Gunderson- and anyone else out there- it's absolutely wrong to do what you do, and it's even worse when you dare mingle the words of the Prophet with your twisted philosophies. How in the world do people get so desperate for money and the high life that they would ever get caught up in your traps....??
01/31/2008 10:01 PM by produce this +?#$%#@
Boy after perusing the Atlas website and viewing the photos, videos and then the YouTube thing...I have come to the conclusion that I am jealous! LOL!!! The YouTube thing was just absolutely embarrasing, three balding, fat guys as heros? Not to me! The Atlas Choice? What? The Ego Choice! Outside of this LDS bubble, not one of these guys could get laid! The pix of the vacation was disturbing, all of the men have breasts. I thought principled based living included some sort of healthy eating and fitness regimen! BTW, goatees look like crap as well. What were these guys wives thinking? I feel sorry for their children. Well, I hate to be petty, but I'll let you that knew them do all the real complaining here, I'll just point out the simple things that would prevent me from giving them "MY" money.
01/31/2008 10:39 PM by Jealous
President Hinckley I am sure would have felt that way. But I am also sure with the tactics the LDS church employs for tithing had no problem taking their dirty money. Probably part of their penance for the crap they were selling to honest hard working people. I thought your church had systems of checks and balances in each ward. If that is true, did they just look the other way as money from these scoundrels continued to come in. Hell in some demented way Poor Sap probably had his money in the church. Sad for him. He is definitely not LDS, I know him.
01/31/2008 10:44 PM by
'Concerned Family Member' above who posted Wade's cell # - plz make up your own moniker when posting here.
'I know a thing or two' - I love the "Atlasites" term. You should trademark that.
FYI - Latest bankruptcy filing for Atlas Marketing is a motion to extend time until 2/12 for gathering some creditor info citing the following reason: "The initial list of creditors was under 400 and approximately 300 additional creditors have been discovered."
So far, just the top 20 creditors amounted to ~$10M. Can't wait to see what the total is.
01/31/2008 11:23 PM by concerned family member
To Gorka:
I can't wait to hear your announcement this weekend. I will definately be tuned in!!
Everyone else: I have lost a tremendous amount of money as a result of investing (indirectly) with Wade. I can tell you for a fact that this legal process is just starting. The Utah division of Securities knows all the players, and are reaching out, searching for victims and not just sitting back and waiting for victims to come forward. They are actually starting to be very proactive and doing their own investigation as to who the people are that have lost money and encouraging those individuals to file a claim of fraud. The Utah Division of Securities are convinced this is a MAJOR calculated fraud scheme between not just Wade and his entities but many of the other con men that have been discussed on this blog. They are just loading the barrel right now. I would encourage anyone who has invested with any of these individuals, lost money and beleives it was fraudulent to contact the Utah Division of Securities. Want to see justice done but now can't afford the payroll of an attorney since oyur money has been swindled? Make the free call and let the state investigators and attorneys investigate and prosecute these guys on your behalf. I don't have the contact info handy but it has been noted on this blog several times. Trust me, they already have put some major peices of the puzzle together and need to fill in some small gaps but need your help.
As for me, contrary to a previous poster (Turn Yourself In) I don't want closure, I want damage!!!
Let the damage begin!!!!!
01/31/2008 11:43 PM by Homeboy
Homeboy..just to let you know, you're not alone. I agree fully.
01/31/2008 11:54 PM by homeboy's homeboy
Here we go on the church thing again. They quoted other people also, and we aren't bringing up those religions. There are molesters, theives, con-artists, immoral and dishonest people in every religion and plenty of people that skew words or take things out of context as well.
About Wade selling insurance, interesting turn of events for sure.
RED ALERT! I am about to throw out an opinion here that I am sure I will pay for by being attacked by all the posters that are 100% determined to slander and defame every person that they can here.
BUT didn't Garrett Gunderson come on and post with his real name (NOT ANONYMOUSLY) and offered to setup a call and answer any questions that people wanted to ask him? Do you think this call was going to benefit him at all or do you think that no matter what he said during the call people would find a way to complain about? Has he not acknowledged past business connections with several people listed? Has he not explained that things didn't work out and ackowledged that some partnerships didn't work out the way he had hoped? Did he make excuses? Do you really think that it is in his best interest to come on and slander/defame past business partners? Do you think they wouldn't suddenly come out of hiding to slap a lawsuit on him? Is he missing in action or is he going about his normal business? Could he possibly do anything here to satisfy those who have been wronged? It is clear from all of the ignorant comments that there are people here trying to blame everyone they can for their own poor personal judgement or lack of finding out about what they were getting into - granted it appears many were misled, but still ultimately accountable for their own decisions.
Even Poor Sap is twisting his words. Garrett didn't say anything about being thankful for "inheriting" Wheeler's properties - he was saying that he was glad that there was some collateral or property to sell to at least try and recoup part of his lost investment. Why would he want to take on more crappy overpriced property from Poor Sap when he was already trying to get rid of what he had? How can it be considered dodging when it was a STUPID question to begin with? "Hey if you are glad to have distressed property from a failed investment, will you please buy my $900,000 property for $1.3M and help me out?" ...uncomfortable silence.. "Hey why aren't you answering that question? You no-good, question dodging, greedy, producer-shmoducer"
RED ALERT!! Here is where it will get really ugly, but just because a handful of dudes screwed tons of people doesn't mean that everything that they professed to be teaching is pure crap. They may not have believed any of it themselves but there is a reason soooo many people bought in. The ideas weren't bad, it was just how they were carried out by certain individuals that made them bad. They weren't doing the "principled" things that they were telling others to do. Maybe at one time most of them were, but it seems pretty clear that at some point it turned so that at least some were not. Plenty of people were and still are doing great with what a few people started (and lets be honest, none of these people made this stuff up, it has been around and has been or is being practiced all over the place, these people just found a way to make it sound good and market it here). Unfortunately other people got involved and took it places where it shouldn't have gone and perhaps with intention to take advantage of others.
Okay, let the onslaught begin, call me want you want, ask if I am getting paid, ask if I am Garrett's family, whatever it takes to make you feel better about tearing my opinion down and mocking people just for the sake of mocking them. I love how many people it seems are here that really aren't involved, yet they are experts, they are so witty and could find a way to mock anyone. How many of you are Atlas drones that are just mad that you weren't invited to any of the meetings when the cash was flowing? Don't be mad at all successful people just because you are pissed that you blew a Summer going to sell dish but you sucked at selling so now you've made it your job to crack anonymous jokes at the expense of others that you have never met, nor do you have any idea what they do.
02/01/2008 12:36 AM by not again
I was in Kyle Nelson's office one day when Doug and Wade walked in and Wade told Kyle to execute some large six figure deposit from Atlas Capital to Atlas Marketing's account. As part of the exchange, Wade bragged about how he was charging Atlas Marketing 7% interest monthly on the money as a way of keeping Brandon Grover away from the profits of Atlas Marketing. (For the lesser informed, Grover was, or is, Wade's partner in Atlas Marketing, but not in Atlas Capital.) There were six of us in the room that day and maybe (or maybe not) I was the only one who found that whole exchange odd.
Brad Robinson was a former IRS auditor, and his role as legal advisor to Source XII was largely based on letting them know what they would and wouldn't be able to get away with in regard to taxes. (I'm sure the IRS is going to have LOTS of fun when they come looking for all the withholdings taxes probably wasn't able to pay in the last two quarters of 2007. Add tax fraud to Wade's laundry list of problems.) Brad also worked with Andrew Howell in trying to legitimize Atlas Capital. Too little too late. Wade was far too liberal with money for Brad's liking and when Brad finally pulled his head out of his dark place, he came and cleaned his office out and got as far away from everything as possible.
Say what you will about Doug, he was trying to make sure the backends and credit cards were paid. He was close to a deal with Pinnacle that would have covered everything until a few people decided to cover their own a**es and take Apx money and sabotage the deal for everybody else. In the door to door industry Apx is king and if they want somebody bad enough, they'll make an offer you shouldn't refuse.
Wade was the perfect salesman. He had almost everybody in the whole company or collection of companies believing that what he was spewing was just good common business sense. And I bought into it too. Used to think Rick Koerber was a freaking genius until they pulled the covers off my eyes and let me see that I had placed my faith in a bunch of con men.
If you want the real story about everything, go find Rustin Fullmer and Kyle Nelson. Supposedly these were Wade's best friends, and he screwed them over too. Rusty has a brilliant mind, and if the money that he was playing with was legit, he would have gone on to make a fortune.
02/01/2008 01:32 AM by You'd never believe it if you didn't see it
So, it looks like we have at least one person who knows how Wade really did business from the inside with the guts and the decency to bring it out in the open...
Keep those priceless anecdotes coming...and chime in anytime everyone else...there is no way this guy is the only one who got a bad feeling when hearing Wade do business...
"My only desire is to build the kingdom..."
02/01/2008 02:03 AM by oh...i'll believe it...
Oh, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Rusty is already here on the blog...posting just opinions about how Wade and Garrett can't be as bad as they sound and how principles really do work....but not anything he knows about Wade that might actually help things..... I wish he would start using that brilliant mind of his to see what a chump his mentor was, and put some serious distance between them....
02/01/2008 02:08 AM by speak up...
"I am happy to at least have real property that I now can work on being productive with." - Garrett Gunderson
His direct quote on this blog in December. My mistake, I used the phrase "he was looking forward" wow I sure twisted it. If you are going to accuse me of twisting, might want to read what has been said. And yes, he basicaly said the same thing on the call until I offered him my properties.
One more point, he did refer clients to Rex and advisors in his Producer Power Hour program did also. That is how I got mixed up in the whole mess. I have never BLAMED anyone for my decision but me, I made the decision. I do believe I was misled as to the legitimacy, track record, knowlege and even legality of the whole structure. I do not think Garrett has ever admitted his fault in not doing proper due diligence on behalf of his clients before sending them into the Ockham process. He also said he didn't invest with them, that is fine and good. I would be wiling to bet some of his clients did. Any "holistic" advisor as many of those in that type of business like to describve themselves (I read that is I sell insurance at all costs to all people in allo situations) should be aware of what their clients are doing. If he was, and didn't tell them not to do it, then I question the effectiveness of his advice as well as the other advisors in his network making the same recommendations.
By posting his real name and not ANONYMOUSLY (as you so eloquently did in all caps to add the self righteous emphasis) is all well and good. You must really think that makes a difference as you posted ANONYMOUSLY yourself. Hey, I post under this name because someone referred to me in this way before I ever got on here when they were talking about Sleater's house and who owned it. I thought the name was funny and I have continued to use it. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who I am. It is called tax records. All you have to do is check them out and look for the propery owner of Wade's old house which I clearly stated I was. So don't come on here and talk about ANONYMOUS.
P.S. I do want to thank you for referring to my properties as "crappy" and "overpriced". That is what they were/are. Maybe the ANONYMOUS poster on 1/27/08 at 11;!! AM will come after you also. According to him, Wade's house certainly wasn't crappy and overpriced. I ruined a sale for a property he said is worth $1.3MM. .
02/01/2008 03:39 AM by Poor Sap
Before you accusing me of being STUPID (great effect of the all caps you had), I know how to spell basiclly. It was a typo along with many others in the above post. It is dark and I can't type well.
02/01/2008 03:43 AM by Poor Sap
basically - I need to go back to sleep!
02/01/2008 03:46 AM by Poor Sap
Poor Sap,
When Wade realized that he was going to have to get out of your house he stopped payment on a few items that would have paid off the contractors and said something to the effect of "they can put a lien on the house to make sure they get their money. I don't need to be paying for somebody else's improvements."
Wade is telling anybody who will actually listen to him that he had a buyer for your house with an appraisal that matched the amount that would cover whatever is owed on the property and that you screwed the deal up because you didn't want somebody to let him off the hook. I read earlier in the blog that you said that wasn't the case, that the buyer Wade brought to you was uninformed about some things. Would you care to share the story from your perspective?
speak up,
I have a friend who used to be doing Garrett's program, and he was trying to get me to do it too. I asked my friend what he got out of the whole thing and he told me that there was an initial meeting where he and Garrett went over everything in his financial life (2 hours) and had a monthly meeting after that where Garrett would ask him how he was doing in his goals, then give him contact info for people who could help (or better put, even more people who would take his money) him achieve his goals. He paid $500 bucks a month for what boiled down to 1 hour of Garrett's time and that time was spent with Garrett trying to get him to spend money with Garrett's business partners.
I don't care how good your program is, how good your contacts are, how good your message is. Time with you isn't worth $500 an hour. And it turns out that Garrett was referring people to FranklinSquires (Rick Koerber) and the Ockman Group (Rex Wheeler) and Foundations Insurance (Wade Sleater) So essentially, my friend was being advised to talk to a group of frauds and pay $500 a month to hear this advice. Turns out that he couldn't have gotten screwed any better if you spent the money on a high class hooker.
02/01/2008 09:06 AM by You'd never believe it if you didn't see it
If you haven't already reviewed the 'Truth About Summer Sales' video on the www.TheAtlasChoice.com website, it is an absolute RIOT!
It is almost more funny if you view it with the sound off and imagine the setting is outside a courthouse after a hearing on criminal charges brought against Wade. Imagine the 'bodyguards' as his team of lawyers and imagine his dialogue is something to the effect of "...the evidence will prove the allegations against me are false and will show that I am truly a victim of unfortunate circumstances and devious business partners." - and, apparently, you can quote him on that.
The only downside of viewing it with the sound off is you don't get the full impact of his slow, simpleton voice and horrendous acting. I'd like to meet whomever talked him into thinking this video would help his site in some fashion - THAT person could probably sell ice cubes to the Inuits.
02/01/2008 10:26 AM by concerned family member
Now that they are suing agents over house depreciation, it's just another area to get us. Thanks for the info.
02/01/2008 10:43 AM by Scott Wall
Now, this is stuff that needs to get out. I completely agree with what was just said about Gunderson, and all of the defenders of "principles" can stop including men like him and Wade et al in that principled category. I thought that post was very well put.
I agree...speak up....keep bringing all of the sneaky things to the surface. If people's consciences won't keep them accountable, if knowing right/wrong won't stop them....as a lame alternative, perhaps knowing that everyone will know all your dirty little secrets will keep them from doing it again...and keep others from trying.... as self-righteous as everyone is...there were many, many people around each of these men who were just a step away from doing what they did...given the same oppurtunity, they would have done the same thing. You're lucky you've been given a second chance.... do something productive with it!!
02/01/2008 11:46 AM by finally
Mike,
I'd like to hear more about your experience with Founders Capital. What do you mean that the holding company you invested with didn't sign the PPM? Do you mean they choose not to exchange? What does that mean for you?
02/01/2008 12:03 PM by
That's an odd one, I've only heard the phrase "they choose not to exchange" spoken by one person before in my life (though it is similar to the Seinfeld episode "I choose not to run!"). Are you (the above poster) implying that although Mike's money was taken and sent upstream to Founders that perhaps no exchange took place if there was no signature? With or without the signature there was either an exchange or an outright theft once the money changed hands, the only other alternative I can imagine is an outright gift and I think Mike is pretty clear that he had expectations in return for his money that was taken.
Mike, you said in one post that the "holding company I invested with didn't sign the PPM" then in another post you said "the PPM was with Founders Capital." It may be helpful if you cleared up the similarities/differences in your relationship with both the holding company and with Founders Capital. Be careful and be clear -- I think the post above is looking to back you into severing any logical expactation of a relationship between you and Founders Capital by defining your transaction, and therefore any fraud, as strictly with the holding company you mentioned (Vonco Holdings?), but even if I'm wrong it's a good idea to be careful and be clear on this board.
Consider a few questions: Do you think your transaction somehow touched Founders Capital? How did you learn about the Holding Company? How did you learn about Founders Capital? Your PPM would be helpful, but probably not realistic to ask you to post it. A "PPM" is usually a document used to sell an investment strictly to "Accredited" investors, folks having 7 figure net worths, do you meet this definition? Was it expained to you? The dates of your transactions would be helpful as it seems this little scheme of funnellig money to Founders Capital via Holding Companies "evolved" as it grew. How was the deal explained to you? By whom? Were references or referrals provided? Do you know where your money actually went after it left your hand and how it got there? Did you ever receive any money in return for your investment? If so, where did it come from? What was the ultimate source of any returns? How was the money supposed to be invested.
02/01/2008 02:43 PM by Lloyd
Without getting into too much detail, this is how it was told to me. I put my money in a holding company called Vonco Holdings expexting a 3% return on my money every month, when this stopped was when Rick was being investigated by the FBI as most of you know, anyway 6 months later with no interest paid the whole time, rick finally got ahold of the owner of the holding company to either sign the PPM and take the offer which was about a third of his money back sometime, there was no time frame , or the other option was not to sign the PPM and rick would then recind the holding companys secured promisory note, which is illegal and recind means you have to return all the monies that is owed to the holding company within a certain amount of time. Vonco did not like those two options and took option three, to get an attorney and go after rick and franklin squires. I did not have a choice or even see the supposed PPM which really pissed me off. THe holding company told me that my money was to purchase realestate and later found out that it was deposited into Founders Capital who the holding caompany has a secured promisory note with. I hope you can follow this, I could seriously write a book on this subject but I hope you get the just of things.
02/01/2008 05:49 PM by Mike
I've spent way too much time reading this blog, but every once in a while I feel like I understand a little bit more than the week before. This is one of those times. Thanks for the insights, Mike. THere have been so many names in these schemes, but I think we're starting to get towards the middle of the onion, the place where Founders Capital resides. I don't know what will come of all this, but I think that hiring an attorney was the right thing to do. It sounds like this PPM was Founders Capitals way of trying to back out of their commitments and still be able to say they kept them. I fear that some may have fallen for it. If Vonco doesn't want to share what's up, like the PPM info, you should ask them if you need to get your own attorney to protect your interests and see if they'll do a better job of sharing. You should also demand to see the "Secured Promisory Note" and evaluate if it has any value. Again, thanks for sharing, Mike. Good luck. Write the book you mentioned and get it to the authorities mentioned on this blog ASAP so they know you're there.
02/01/2008 06:16 PM by
The DISH network sales reps from last summer were supposed to get paid on Jan 25th. I've heard rumors that you only got paid if you agreed to sign up with Pinnacle to sell for them this next summer. I worked for Atlas selling last summer and havn't been paid yet. I don't know who to call or who to talk to. Doug won't answer his phone. Is there anyone familiar with the DISH side that knows what's going on?
On a personal note I felt like the summer was a joke. I felt taken advantage of. Paperwork was faulty and when I called Nick Hansen on it he gave me weak explanations. So many times during "training" meetings I wanted to scream about morality and ethics, but felt like I would have been looked down on by my friends. Not to mention the lack of structure and responsability of ATLAS. Toss another complaint on the fire.
I only want to hear from Gork! What's the good news?
02/01/2008 06:24 PM by YourMom
It kind of sounds like you have invested money somewhere, am I right? was it with Vonco? Or am I just making something out of nothing?
02/01/2008 06:25 PM by Mike
Mike, got myself in a different investment scam years ago w/ a group out of CA. The investment was entirely different, but I assure you I felt everything you have, four years later I have just under 50% of my investment back (no interest, of course) and am still staring at an ongoing process of trying to improve that, but doubt that I will.
I was never a big fan of getting attorneys involved in business transactions, preferred to judge people by their words and deeds then let their word be their bond -- needless to say I'm a big proponent of sound legal advice and binding legal contracts now. I've never heard of Vonco and was tempted to ask what it means but didn't want to distract you from the important parts of your ongoing story. I can't say what's-what with this particular investment but I'll tell you that I was lied to every day for a year until the SEC got involved and got a hold of the books and the promoters knew that they then had to begin worrying about perjury charges if they continued to tell their stories, their story changed dramatically and adversely -- that's the day I realized there's a breed of people out there who have a genuine ability to lie to ones face without any feeling of guilt or remorse -- they seem to think that they are superior to the average person and it's therefore only right for them to win even if it's cheating just a little.
I don't know Mr. Koerber but have listened to portions of his radio program lately since finding this blog. A couple of weeks ago (I believe it was a repeated program) he described how a friend of his bounced a single check on accident recently, then he proceeded to rip on him for quit a while about how he's done himself irreparable harm in the eyes of his community, how this guy considered himself a capitalist but is obviosly a socialist and a consumer and has a scarcity mentality, it was much more judgemental than I can relate with accuracy now. He went on and on and on ripping on this "friend" of his for bouncing a single check on accident. I am certainly against bouncing checks, but how much worse is it to break what appear to be tens of millions of dollars worth of contracts, then assume you can just renegotiate them in your favor and it's OK. Really, if Mr. Koerber judges his friends so harshly and publicly for bouncing a single check how can he justify his infinitly more serious breaches of financial conduct over this past year -- yet justify it he does (or seems to on his program.)
Some people will take no responsibility until responsibility is forced upon them. I fear that you will not get the whole truth until it's forced out of whomever possesses it. I hope that truth comes soon and with some recourse for you.
And a thought based on another program I tuned in to . . . I probably did MUCH better with my 401k over the past year, a down year mind you, than if I had moved it into one of the "low-risk, high return" real estate ventures that were being taught by FreeCapitalist.com radio and implemented by the holding companies sending cash to Founders Capital. My 401k is down 4% on the year, it sounds like the holding company alternative is likely a complete loss -- talk about taking stewardship over your own resources. Man have I heard some doosies on that program. Anybody know if those are live or reruns and from when? The bitter irony is that I have found some genuinely compelling discussions on that show, but along with your fine meal of interesting insights you also are forced to eat some monkey vomit which winds up spoiling the whole meal!
To the dude with the spell checker, let's just concede that I stink at spelling and not waste a post on it.
02/01/2008 07:32 PM by Lloyd
This is what gets me too. The Radio re-runs are still going thru the air waves, including the ones from 2006 when rick goes on and on about his amd les mcguire's cars; jag vs. ferrari or how he "achieved" one million dollar on his checking account and every morning verified that he still had more than 1 mil there... At the same time no one got paid since october on leased properties from new castle holdings. some times i think he deliberatly runs those old programs to even more piss off all the people he owes money to. The freecapitalist.com site meanwhile is operated as if nothing is going on. There are still tons of people post their aspirations on that site forums looking up for the great rick. I wonder, how many more future victims did rick personally "mentored" charging $4250 or something like that for a "class" of enterpreneurship?
02/01/2008 08:08 PM by Preferred Buyer
Poor sap - you are one of the most defensive people I have ever seen. What makes you think that entire post was aimed at you? I wasn't giving you crap for posting anonymously. I am sorry if it seemed that way. The majority of my post was complaining about all the ignorant people that really weren't affected by any of this but talk so big here. Really the only thing I was giving you crap about was the fact that you were taking GGs statement out of context and dragged him back into it when he at least tried to make himself a little available to help, especially when it was clear that no matter how much he said or did, it would never be enough and people would find a way to tear him down.
02/01/2008 09:10 PM by not again
Why was Rick and/or Founders Capital being investigated by the FBI? If this was back in the spring, why have no charges been filed? I know that the state was and/or is taking a look at him but this is the first I've heard of an FBI investigation.
02/01/2008 09:57 PM by the x factor
not again,
Are you saying Gunderson is clean in all of this?
02/01/2008 09:58 PM by
What came of that phone call where GG offered to help clear things up? Did anyone listen in? What was discussed? Did anything come of it?
02/01/2008 10:00 PM by
X Factor, I don't know anything about an FBI investigation, but it's my understanding that any fraud that happens across state lines, be it through the US mail or phone or via travel, can be pursued by the FBI since state jurisdictions can be complicated and competing state regulations can be contradictory. If a Utah company commits fraud against Utah people you may see the State Attorney General or a County Attorney or the State Securities Division pursue the case. If a Utah company commits fraud against a bunch of people in Florida you might see the FBI added to the list of Utah and Florida regulators. I'm just guessing. Why no charges you ask? Because maybe the FBI decided there were no violations, or maybe because it takes a long time to get the evidence to pursue charges -- as you may have noticed nobody is stepping up and apologizing for their misdeeds, so the "authorities" have to find somebody who got abused, get their info, prove it, follow it up the abuse chain one level at a time until they can make the case they want to make -- and even then they may just turn the info over to the State folks to decide if a crime has been committed. My guess is that the Feds won't ever charge anything, they'll just assist the states in gather info and preparing a case, if one exists. Disclaimer: I'm just guessing on that stuff, I hope we have an attorney here who can give us a better opinion.
02/01/2008 10:31 PM by Alfalfa
2 posts up -
Do you think I would dare suggest GG is clean in all of this? That would start the big-mouths going like crazy. I do really find it interesing that he has been the only person mentioned that has been willing to discuss his interactions with all of the accused - and yet he continues to be accused and people act like they are discovering huge secrets about him. He made himself available...where were all the big talkers then? He acknowledged his past relationships and I am pretty sure he did so with a clear understanding that no matter what he said he would be ridiculed here. Just doesn't seem like he has much to hide compared to the people that are in hiding.
02/01/2008 10:35 PM by not again
not again, GG is a twerp... My observation is this... All these guys should be watching their backs! I'm from California, where cultural diversity alone is cause enough for untold violence and all these guys are pretty arrogant to think that everybody here is a White-Bread, Mormon-Wuss and that no possible harm could ever befall them or their families. No, I'm not threatening, just making an observation. Anyplace but here, and in addition to SEC, State and Federal invesigation and possible prosecution...these "boys" would get their ASSES kicked!
02/01/2008 10:49 PM by GG Is A Twerp!
that last post is perhaps the most stupid comment so far. "I am from California...." WHAT???
02/01/2008 11:26 PM by what????
I once went to Hawaii and there were so many asians and polynesians....so that makes people from California so wimpy...the FBI investigates stuff and bacon is good!
02/01/2008 11:29 PM by
what????, GG is a twerp is right! The Utah Valley has nary a race crime, gender crime, religious crime or a whole host of other violent things that exist out of this "bubble". This is not the real world, it is a twisted facsimle. The reason this whole thing happened in the first place is because people like you don't want to work for your money, you want to "leverage" your time. If everybody was actually at work and not at Riverside chatting it up, you would have never, ever thought a 29 ding-a-ling could return you 40% annual interest on your investment. BTW, never in the history of the stock market has there been those kind of "consistent" returns. Get a job or go back to seminary...
02/01/2008 11:59 PM by what????, what!
Keep talkin you hardcore gangsta Californian?? The more you talk the more you prove just how ignorant you are and that you have have no business posting about fraud/finances/business/religion/grammar/etc/etc Go back to your myspace page and leave some comments for your homies that can understand what your are talking about.
What does the level of race crime in Utah Valley have to do with someone being a "twerp". Where is this "Utah Valley" that you are referring to? Utah County? The person you are referring to doesn't have a lot going on in the UC.
Yo G, you should know from your days of pimpin and drug slingin that 40% returns are nothing when you are controlling your bizniz the right way. May not last forever, but long enough to get your bling right?
I'll take your advice and go start looking for a job and I'll be sure not to ever invest in anything and try and earn some of that whacked out "interest" that all those lazy white boys are trying to get. I could go on and on but I'm starting to think that maybe you are just someone acting like they are stupid, because seriously you make no sense.
02/02/2008 12:33 AM by what???
I have to apologize for my own grammar errors above. Typing too fast in disbelief of what I was reading.
02/02/2008 12:38 AM by what???
From these posts you get an idea of how Wade does business by how he dealt with his house and poor sap.
He leases a house, goes against the lease he signed and makes improvements to the property, puts in a pool and whatever else without the owners permission.
He stops making lease payments even though he's living in the house and up and leaves. He doesn't pay the contractors he hired to put in the pool because he says it's not his house and why should he pay for someone elses pool.
So what's the Wade Sleater solution to the problem? Find someone that he can sell the house to at a high enough price to get everyone he hired paid. So Wade finds another dumb buyer and tells him what he thinks the house is worth. Only problem is the actual appraisal comes in way below the agreed upon price.
Wade Sleater plan b. Go back to the Atlas playbook and use an appraiser that will cook the appraisal. Do whatever it take with BS appraisals to get someone to give you the money you need. Never mind the real value of the property. If Wade needs the money, get the cooked appraisal get the money and move on.
Only problem is PoorSap wasn't willing to use a cooked appraisal like Wade to screw someone over just to take care of his problems. Sap must be from out of state and never listened and learned from the Producer radio shows.
So what does wade do? He blames poor sap for "screwing up" his deal. Give me a break.
Wade refuses to pay his contractors because it's not his property and up and leaves. Never mind he was the one that hired them to do the job. They did the job. They're out the money. Wade doesn't pay. How can you pay $100k for a freaking car, but not pay some dude who works his a off all summer to put a pool in your back yard?
This mess has nothing to do with subprime this or tough luck that. It's about a guy that does bad business and doesn't have the stones to take care of his messes. Mix in a little Provo drama and everyone gets to watch the big man on campus go down and you have what you have. Just a bad business man. Dime a dozen. You do bad business, bad things happen.
02/02/2008 01:14 AM by bad biniz
I have a family member (they are dillusional and down right stupid) that works for FS and aparently they are still being paid. So there is money somewhere at least being eaten up partially by payroll.
I too saw the secret I mean the producer revolution video it was so lame and cheesey and is humerous to think about what has happened since. Maybe those gentleman can talk to their future cell mates at the fed pen about freedom versus scarcity and so forth.
02/02/2008 09:58 AM by I heard
Speaking of FS, lets hear more about FS and Koerber and the missing Gabe and the crew? We have 100 examples of deals/projects/investments that Sleater has done and the only new news there will be when his charges are brought. What about FS and the Free Capital people?
02/02/2008 10:57 AM by wondering
Bad Biniz,
Plausible, but wrong. I personally know of at least one appraisal, that had nothing to do with Wade on a smaller, older house in the same area, where comps are applicable that came back at $1.2 million.
I don't agree with many things that Wade has done, but the Poor Sap story is that of a Poor Sap. It was a completly legitimate, straight up deal.
Nice plausible explanation that is solely based upon biased information, inuendo, and completly ignoring the other side of the story.
02/02/2008 12:30 PM by
To post above:
Not sure what you're talking about with the appraisal. I know the appraiser that appraised Wade's house. Maybe at one point in time it was worth $1.4. Actually, it probably never was worth $1.4 since all the other comps in the area were inflated values. The appraiser knew at the time they were stretching things and didn't want too many people to see it. Poor Sap did the right thing and not agreeing to the sell. I'm not even sure if that really happened.
What is more troubling is how in the hell does Wade have his insurance license??? And I'm glad to see Gunderson's true colors come out. "Oh, I don't really know those guys from FS and Atlas" What an idiot!!
02/02/2008 01:16 PM by Bill
Bill - the post above - what are you talking about with Gunderson acting like he doesn't know those guys? What post/blog are you reading? There are plenty of photos, videos, and his own words ackowledging his partnerships and past business with certain people from those companies.
My guess is that Wade got a license by going down, taking the test and applying. Your true colors are coming out - get a clue.
02/02/2008 03:19 PM by
"Bill" is refering to the "conference call" that Garrett had in response to this blog.
02/02/2008 03:36 PM by David Doerr
Shortly after the news that the bank accounts ran dry and checks started bouncing the people who were still heavily involved with Atlas were called into a meeting where Wade told them that the credit cards that they, their friends and family members had lent to Atlas Marketing for the purpose of financing the equipment used to install the systems that Atlas had sold weren't going to be immediately paid back. Wade put on a show about how he was going to be able to pay everybody back, that it was going to take some time.
The interesting part of this story is that Dish Network pays back a retailer the week after the equipment is installed for the equipment they put into the customer's house. In fact the pitch that Atlas made in using those credit cards was that Dish paid back the money fairly quickly so they wouldn't have to carry a balance on there. At the time that the meeting was held most people were approaching the 30 day late mark on their cards and would have to start paying their own money in order to make sure that the cards didn't start racking up 30 and 60 day late penalties on their credit reports.
There was close to a million dollars that Atlas put on other people's credit cards and then walked away from not paying anything at all. When Wade was asked what happened to the Echostar money that was to be used to pay the equipment back, he dodged the question and went on to other things.
One other thing... Source XII didn't generate any income at all. Having looked at the bankrupcy filings, I want to know how Source XII, or Wade for that matter, loaned any money to Atlas Marketing in the first place. Wade was getting all of his money from Atlas Marketing, and so was Source XII. Not knowing the Source XII side of the operations as well as I do the Atlas side, I can't know this for certain, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of the operational costs that Source XII was consuming was just Atlas Marketing money transfered from an Atlas bank account to a Source XII bank account. I never saw the individual checks, but I heard from more than one source that Wade was paying his top 4 or 5 guys just under $10k a month a piece. Your Atlas Capital/Atlas Marketing dollars hard at work.
02/02/2008 04:22 PM by You'd never believe it if you didn't see it
Sure it was a completly legitimate, straight up deal....until the actual appraisal came back no where near Wade's price. Is the buyer going to believe what Wade tells him the house is worth or what an appaiser tell him? It's my understanding the actual appraisal did come in well below Wade's price. Are you disputing that? Why does it matter if a different home in a different location has a higher appraisal if there was a real appraisal done on the property Wade was trying to sell.
That still doesnt' explain why the guy stiffs the contractors that he hired. Since you know both sides of the story maybe you know the reason.
02/02/2008 04:57 PM by bad biniz
Flash!
Rumor has it that Poor Sap sold the house. Heard from a source that the house closed this week for $925,000.00 in a short sale situation. I don't know PS so I can't confirm anything. If that is the case seems like all of you guys bashing him for screwing up a sale are wrong. If the house is worth $1.2MM to $1.4MM then why would the bank take a $925,000.00 purchase price?
02/02/2008 05:11 PM by
Let me give you a little hot tip. Banks aren't in the business of holding properties. Banks are in the business of money. It looks much better to be down $200k than it is to be left holding a property that will probably depreciate in value before it goes up given the current climate. In addition, while the bank may allow the secured interest to be sold at less then full value, it doesn't mean that Poor Sap, or more appropriately, Wade, is off the hook. If the marketplace would have allowed the home to sell at full value, the bank wouldn't have had to have worried about a short sell. Better to get what you can now and wait for the remainder later than it is to be out the full value for a longer period of time.
02/02/2008 05:47 PM by Hence the name SHORT SELL!!!
Where is the bombshell?
02/02/2008 05:49 PM by Where is Gorka
Bad Biniz,
If it is a comparable home, but older, smaller and on a smaller lot. It matters because I wasn't talking about a home in Stonegate, I was talking about a home in the exact same area and the comps work on both of the homes in question. Yes, if you read posts up a ways (on 1/23) you will see why there is a dispute with Poor Sap's appraisal. Wade was estimating its value at somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4, sure that is on the upper end of its value, but it is completely justifiable. He was selling it to the buyer for 1.2. I should know soon on another appraisal of another comparable home, where Wade didn't hire the appraiser, and where there is no 4th garage nor the pool.
While much of the real estate market has had a downturn, for some reason the homes valued at over a million in that neighborhood have done well--well, except for a couple where the contractor is an idiot.
Again, if you read above you will see that with Wade's businesses collapsing, he wasn't able to pay the contractors as he had planned to in the beginning. At that point he attempted to sell the house in a way that would take care of the contractors--not even recouping the cash he put down with the contractors, just paying what was left to pay them. Then when Poor Sap decided not to sell the house, that is when Wade turned to the contractors, without any other options he suggested trying to lien the house. He didn't want to stiff them, he just didn't have any way left to pay them.
02/02/2008 10:51 PM by
To the guy above that thinks I need to get a clue- You're an idiot. If you had any knowledge of the procedure people go through, the information they have to submit, the process in GENERAL, you'd know what I'm talking about. So don't be a smart ass and tell me "my true colors are coming out." You get a clue and figure out what I'm talking about before you go an open your big mouth and sound like a complete idiot.
As David pointed out, I was referring to the conference call GG had. Were you on that call? If not, then I expect you to shut your mouth. As first, Gunderson came out trying to distance himself from the whole "holding company" scheme when in fact he had advised many of his clients to these said holding companies. So once again, before you open your ignorant white trash uneducated mouth, make sure you know what you're talking about.
"I'm not superstitious, i'm just a little stitious."
02/02/2008 10:58 PM by Bill
To You'd Never...,
The first part, yeah, obviously the money wasn't there to pay back cards.
Your last part is probably the most telling. I think that is Wade's biggest problem, that he took his focus from what was producing the income and put it on other "more promising" ventures. He was paying people too much to manage the new ventures, and when things didn't go as well as they would have liked at Atlas, it created a domino effect--everything was just too dependent on Atlas providing enough income for a bunch of additional overhead.
02/02/2008 11:38 PM by 2 Cents
Bill,
I didn't say one word about your explanation of the process you described. You're an idiot, read what I wrote. I'll repeat what I and at least one or two other people have stated about WHY WOULDN'T GG WANT TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THESE PEOPLE? So would I, so would you, and so would anyone else that was trying to move on and realized that those people were doing nothing good. He started to distance himself well before the $h!t hit the fan because they were failing in their partnerships with him. He has offered to answer what he can about his dealings, but he is smart enough to realize that he can't come out publicly and make claims about what any of these other people were doing (maybe to authorities, but not publicly and certainly on a blog full of dopes that have never had the slightest interaction with him, yet will tear him to shreds just to make themselves feel better about how broke they are). You've seen how these other dudes operate, they would sue him in a heartbeat if he started slandering them the way everyone else has, especially since he is the one of the few still making money and being successful.
Talk to any type of financial advisor type person in Salt Lake or Utah County and see how many clients they have had come in determined to put money in one of these holding companies. It doesn't matter what the advisor said, most were still determined to "invest" in these funds. I still know people trying to get in on it even after all that we've seen. You don't think GG had clients that came in asking about these funds or where they could get in on them? I have heard from some that he asked them to sign releases, or waivers or whatever you want to call them, stating that he actually advised against it, but they were determined to invest anyway and now they still go to him for advice because they realize he was right!
Look back at old material and you will see that one of the things being preached from the beginning was collateralized investments. In case things turned bad there would at least be some ability to retain most of your principle. A LOT OF PEOPLE ignored this when the holding fund gamble became so lucrative.
Now before you fire back accusing me of opening my ignorant white trash uneducated mouth again, make sure you know what you are talking about. I am willing to bet my education is at least equal to or greater than yours, and while I do consider myself a "honky" (and proud of it) I am not even close to white trash, and as far as my mouth is concerned I am one the funniest people I know, just ask me.
02/03/2008 12:10 AM by "the guy above" that made Bill so angry
Bill,
I didn't say one word about your explanation of the process you described. You're an idiot, read what I wrote. I'll repeat what I and at least one or two other people have stated about WHY WOULDN'T GG WANT TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THESE PEOPLE? So would I, so would you, and so would anyone else that was trying to move on and realized that those people were doing nothing good. He started to distance himself well before the $h!t hit the fan because they were failing in their partnerships with him. He has offered to answer what he can about his dealings, but he is smart enough to realize that he can't come out publicly and make claims about what any of these other people were doing (maybe to authorities, but not publicly and certainly on a blog full of dopes that have never had the slightest interaction with him, yet will tear him to shreds just to make themselves feel better about how broke they are). You've seen how these other dudes operate, they would sue him in a heartbeat if he started slandering them the way everyone else has, especially since he is the one of the few still making money and being successful.
Talk to any type of financial advisor type person in Salt Lake or Utah County and see how many clients they have had come in determined to put money in one of these holding companies. It doesn't matter what the advisor said, most were still determined to "invest" in these funds. I still know people trying to get in on it even after all that we've seen. You don't think GG had clients that came in asking about these funds or where they could get in on them? I have heard from some that he asked them to sign releases, or waivers or whatever you want to call them, stating that he actually advised against it, but they were determined to invest anyway and now they still go to him for advice because they realize he was right!
Look back at old material and you will see that one of the things being preached from the beginning was collateralized investments. In case things turned bad there would at least be some ability to retain most of your principle. A LOT OF PEOPLE ignored this when the holding fund gamble became so lucrative.
Now before you fire back accusing me of opening my ignorant white trash uneducated mouth again, make sure you know what you are talking about. I am willing to bet my education is at least equal to or greater than yours, and while I do consider myself a "honky" (and proud of it) I am not even close to white trash, and as far as my mouth is concerned I am one the funniest people I know, just ask me.
02/03/2008 12:10 AM by "the guy above" that made Bill so angry
That's right, my comments were so nice they posted twice.
02/03/2008 12:13 AM by vanilla ice
you keep saying PS didn't want to sell the house and screwed up Wade's deal. why would he not want to sell the house? Maybe the buyer didn't want to pay $1.4 large for a house that appraised for $900k. you seem to know what's going on with this but you've never answered if there was in fact an appraisal done on the house for less than $1.4.
But if it's true PS sold the house than maybe the contractors did get paid??? Maybe Wade ended up paying them??? Maybe I jumped to conclusions??? Sorry Wade. Who the heck knows???
02/03/2008 12:26 AM by Good biniz
"I am willing to bet my education is at least equal to or greater than yours"
Too bad and education does not guarantee intelligence....Bill got mad because you told him to get a clue, and that's not right. Having an education does not permit you to belittle people, in fact I find it hard to believe that you are educated (beyond a diploma on the wall), lacking civility, and courtesy. A simple apology would be the correct response. If you can't do that then maybe you need to troll somewhere else.
02/03/2008 01:02 AM by
"To the guy above that thinks I need to get a clue- You're an idiot. " - "So once again, before you open your ignorant white trash uneducated mouth, make sure you know what you're talking about."
Very civil, courteous, and educated. He was making dumb statements and calling people names....I turned his "true colors" statement right back at him. I didn't claim to be more intelligent, just turned his "uneducated" statement back at him.
Thanks for the lesson on being nice. Where have you been this entire time?
02/03/2008 01:33 AM by
To follow are the Atlas Capital and Annuit Coeptis investor sites. My mother's initial login was her first initial followed by her last name with an initial password of "welcome" (both User ID and Password are lowercase). If someone has the time, perhaps they could play around in there to see if it yields any clues. Maybe some of the top dogs were stupid enough not to have changed their initial password.
https://apps.shortstacksoft.com/atlascapital/ui/control/main
https://apps.shortstacksoft.com/annuit/ui/control/main
I find it interesting that both companies are under investigation for similar activities and happen to share the same Provo-based web hosting company although Annuit Coeptis seems to be based out of Idaho. Does anyone know of any other 'investment' companies using the same Short Stack software and web hosting company?
02/03/2008 02:32 AM by concerned family member
To Good Biniz,
Good question as to why he didn't want to sell the house. I don't blame him for not trusting Wade based upon what he was hearing.
I thought it was known that Sap's appraisal came in less than 1.4, it came in at 1.05. The bottom line though, is that the appraiser never set foot in the house--how could he possibly do an accurate appraisal?
Wade hasn't paid the contractors. I don't know if the liens held up, because Sap didn't agree to the work.
I am not Wade, nor do I think that Wade hasn't made mistakes with several other things. I just think that in this instance Wade was not doing anything wrong, and Sap hurt himself.
02/03/2008 03:49 AM by
Short Stack software was owned by Wade Sleater, Brandon Grover, Ryan Warnick and Jarod Ribble. Ryan Warnick is Wade's brother in law. When Wade initially got involved with FranklinSquires he pitched Short Stack's software, which was written so he could manage Atlas Capital, to all of the other holding funds in Rick's downline. At one point Short Stack had 4 or 5 holding funds operating using their software.
I don't know what Ryan is doing now, but Jarrod was working for Brandon Grover at Nuvont maintaining their operational software. As a quick side note to my last post, Brandon Grover, an owner in Atlas Marketing, had one of Atlas' accountants put together a check for some mid six figure number. (If I would have been smart, I would have written it down, it was something like $400k if I remember right) The check was supposed to used as a payment to Veracity Communications which was providing the backbone of Nuvont's services. Later that week somebody told me that John Briggs (the accountant in charge at Atlas) was pissed because the money that Brandon had pulled out of the accounts was supposed to be used to pay credit cards.
Maybe if Wade and Brandon weren't stripping every cent of profit out of their company Atlas Capital wouldn't have had to lend nearly $4mil back to Atlas.
02/03/2008 09:40 AM by You'd never believe it if you didn't see it
Ok, I wll clear things up. I hope this is my last post on here (unless someone lies about me again). For the record, I have been 100% truthful and I have nothing to hide. I can't say the same for defenders of these scoundrels.
I sold the house on Wednesday for $925,000.00. The bank agreed to the short sale. The above post is a flat out lie as far as the appraiser never entering the house. He did enter the house and I have the appraisal with pictures to prove it. He even had to stay out of one room because one of Wade's kids was asleep. It appraised for $1.05MM. Since then I believe 2 houses in the same neighborhood (if not more) have gone into foreclosure. I believe Atlas people "owned" these homes and walked also. FYI, that effects values of properties. The buyer was very well aware of this and that is why he offered $925,000.00
We (the buyer and I) worked with the contractors and got some of the liens removed. He agreed to hire them to complete the jobs that hadn't been finished if he bought the house. We both felt the liens were faulty but wanted to get the sale done. Not all of the liens were removed so we both agreed to split the difference of what was left and pay these guys off. This may be foreign to some people on here (read that as these scoundrel's defenders), but that was the right thing to do. These guys were hired by a less than ethical person. One of the contractors had told the buyer he was close to going bankrupt due to what Wade did. We felt it was in the best interest to pay him. It was no fault of his that he was in that situation.
What has been good about this whole fiasco, is I believe I have been able to expose these scoundrels for what they are. The defenders have come here to defend the undefensible. Does anyone here believe I wouldn't want to sell the house? Are you kidding me?
Now I have 3 more properties to get rid of. An apartment building in Logan, UT that Wade wanted to be built. (Don't get me started on how misleading that one was from Wade and Rex) One of "Rex's homes" in Carlsbad, CA., and one of "Rex's spec homes" in SLC. The last 2 are listed for about 30% less than what is owed on them.
Last point and I am done. This quote from above:
I just think that in this instance Wade was not doing anything wrong, and Sap hurt himself.
Is partially correct. I trusted some very unethical people where truth doesn't matter. Heck the post above me, shows that when you state the appraiser didn't enter the house. If I could post the appraisal to PROVE that wrong I would. Wade walked on a property, didn't pay honest contractors for the work they did, mislead a buyer as to the value of the house, and cancelled a check 1 week after moving out basically stealing a months rent from me. So yes, I hurt myself and yes I am paying the price for it.
02/03/2008 09:40 AM by Poor Sap
To Poor Sap,
I'd say I feel your pain in dealing with this whole mess, but it turns out my hurt is only a five figure hurt and yours is a seven or eight figure hurt. But I do have some understanding about how you are feeling. The defenders of Wade are going to have a much harder time in the future trying to justify his actions because every single time a new piece of the puzzle is put in place you get a very good feel for how truly morally bankrupt he is.
Having spent some time around Wade I feel safe in saying that he didn't go into these ventures with the intention of screwing people, but one of his associates, trying to justify Wade's actions back in September and October told me "What do you think Wade is going to do? Take care of his family or try and bail out a bunch of stupid investors." I'm sure the guy's own feelings were injected a little bit there, but he couldn't have had the thought without somebody else (read Wade) putting that thought there.
I'm grateful that you shared your experiences here and I hope that you shared them with the Utah Securities and Real Estate divisions so that they can continue putting the pieces of the puzzle together. I don't care how "well intentioned" Wade was, it was his actions when things started falling apart that are truly telling of how he really is.
02/03/2008 09:53 AM by You'd never believe it
You'd never believe it:
It has been said/implied that Atlas is a downline of Franklin Squires companies. Was Atlas hurt by Franklin not distributing money? A Ponzi involves paying-out old investors from new investors, is this fact why Franklin had to stop paying out, otherwise it would be determined to be a Ponzi, and has to just sit on the money it has? Can you clarify the relationship between these two companies/individuals, and offer insight as to whether or not they are still friendly, are the ranks of these several realtionships strained and falling apart? Do you think they will begin turning on eachother?
02/03/2008 02:58 PM by Curious to know
Try thes on that Atlas Capital shortstack.com website posted above:
ggunderson/welcome
rsleater/welcome
02/03/2008 05:05 PM by Good guesser
Try thes on that Atlas Capital shortstack.com website posted above:
ggunderson/welcome
rsleater/welcome
02/03/2008 05:05 PM by Good guesser
Um... correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the only one that I've called any type of name and I only did that because you made an ignorant remark that had no basis. I've made positive contributions to this blog unlike yourself. I apologize for calling you ignorant, white trash, and uneducated, but at the time it seemed like it fit.
I agree with you that GG would try and distance himself from these guys and that's my point. Why then would Wade, Ryan, and Jordan ALL have their insurance license under GG insurance affliation?? And my point about the PROCESS they go through is how in the world would the Insurance Governing Body for the state license them? Especially at a time like this. Again I apologize for the name calling.
02/03/2008 07:05 PM by Bill
Wow, I just looked at Gunderson's and Ryan Sleaters Atlas Capital accounts. Well, there's some of your guys' money right there!
02/03/2008 08:29 PM by Insane
IP addresses are tracked by the shortstack software for anyone who goes to the site. Accessing other people's information is illegal.
02/03/2008 08:34 PM by Don't be stupid!
Those can't be real. I would guess they are just demo accounts. No one in their right mind would leave the default password on a financial account.
02/03/2008 09:48 PM by i am stupid
This is funny: the login error now says: The account for user login id "rsleater" has been disabled.since 2008-02-03 19:49:35.774.
Somebody from this camp is definetly reading this blog!
02/04/2008 12:40 AM by haha
Curious to know,
Initially there was a lot of money placed with Founders but midway through the summer Wade had Kyle pull all of it out of Founders. Wade said the reason had something to with not having any idea of what Rick was putting the money into. (Go figure) But I think Wade had some clue that something was looming for Founders. Anyways, by August he had all of the Atlas Capital money out of Founders.
Rick and Wade were at one point partners in The Producer Revolution. Engenuity and FranklinSquires were set to merge, they started trying to consolidate operations, even had a big group meeting where all FranklinSquires and Engenuity employees were brought together and told how the merger was going to happen. I wasn't privy to any of the activities of the partners, but shortly after a group trip to Hawaii (they loved to take expensive retreats to talk business) everybody came back and nobody was working on completing the merger anymore. Now that I think about it, this was close to the time that Source XII came on the horizon.
I never saw any of this, but I heard that shortly after October 10th (when the paychecks stopped coming) Rick came to Wade's office with one of his attorneys in tow. Rick had an interest in making sure that Atlas Capital had some form of stability because if Atlas Capital got torn apart by the authorities it would make a stronger case against Founders. Not sure how much of this info is legit and how much of it is speculative. Take it for what you will
02/04/2008 01:07 AM by You'd never believe it if you didn't see it
Well, now it looks like Wade has finally disabled all of the user names that were set up for investors at their ghetto shortstack website. Wade really is a jackass. Apparently after he decided to rip everyone off, he just forgot to block us all out of his investor website. My own user name and password worked up until now. I had assumed that it was because he was too dumb to know how to turn it off himself. I guess it took this blog to remind him that it was still operational and that he should probably shut it down. It's too bad, I was still enjoying watching my interest compound daily. In just a few more years, I would have had millions in imaginary money!
02/04/2008 05:01 AM by I'm still coming after you, jackass!
Lloyd,
Several posts up, you stated to Mike:
" I think the post above is looking to back you into severing any logical expactation of a relationship between you and Founders Capital by defining your transaction, and therefore any fraud, as strictly with the holding company you mentioned (Vonco Holdings?), but even if I'm wrong it's a good idea to be careful and be clear on this board."
I am the person who posted that question to Mike and I assure you that I have no desire to do as you suggest. I'm just trying to understand this whole mess. I have money "invested" in another holding company. As I understand it, that holding company loaned the money to Franklin Squires who in turn loaned it Founders Capital. Like so many others, I have not been receiving payments for many months.
I've heard that Founders Capital completed an exchange/rescission offer. My understanding is that investors could choose to exchange their current notes for new terms, or rescind and receive a refund of their capital. Mike stated that Vonco was offered 30% less than the amount they originally loaned. I've heard similar rumors elsewhere. In fact, I've heard that the regulations only require them to pay the amount of the orginal note less any interest that has been paid. For some, that would be siginificantly less that the original amount of the note. I don't know whether that is an accurate understanding of the law or not. One attorney told me emphatically that it is not an accurate understanding.
My question to Mike was an attempt to learn what holding companies are doing. I know of several whose investors have requested a return of capital. I've wondered why those companies didn't "rescind" during the exchange/rescission offer and thus have the ability to return capital to those who've requested it. If Mike's account is accurate, the question is answered, ie. there was no timeline for the return of the capital.
I'm simply trying to understand this whole mess, and determine what options I have. Many have suggested contacting the SEC. I'm hesitant to do so because I don't believe they have the ability to get my money back. In fact, it may very well result in less available money. Surely Rick and the others will hire attorneys to defend them.
I could hire my own attorney. The attorneys I have contacted believe that a ruling in my favor is nearly guaranteed, since the holding fund is in default on their note. It's the collection that's a challenge. I don't want to spend $30-40k only to learn that there is nothing to collect. I also believe that most, if not all of their assets are tied up in Founders Capital. If Founders can successfully isolate against downline, collection is that much more difficult.
No, Lloyd, I think a strong relationship exists between Founders Capital and these other Holding Funds. I know some people who were sold the opportunity to invest in holding funds while attending Franklin Squires introductory seminars. Certainly many of us were introduced to this concept while taking courses from Franklin Squires. I'm just concerned that Rick is smart enough to have isolated himself from those other funds.
By the way, many on this forum like to talk about how ignorant and greedy these investors were. I thought I'd chime in with my own two cents. I became a student at FS because I knew there was a lot I didn't know. I was willing to part with my hard earned money because I recognized a deficency in my own education. Prior to becoming a student, I contacted the BBB, and I scoured the internet for info. Yes, I found info on Rick in Wyoming, but he readily admitted to it and gave what seemed to be a reasonable explanation. Other than that, I could not find anything negative about Rick or Franklin Squires. I attempted to do my due diligence. As it turns out, I wasn't very good at it.
I knew there was a great deal about investing and money that I didn't know and I attempted to correct that. So, when my "mentors" were talking about holding funds, and low/risk, high/return, I thought it was legitimate. We talked with an accountant. He didn't seem to think it was a scam or impossible. And, let me note that he wasn't in Utah and he does not have any affiliation with FS.
I did not invest in a holding fund out of greed. I believed it to be a matter of stewardship. The goal wasn't to quit working. It was simply to better steward the resources with which we'd been entrusted. Isn't that what all of us do with 401k 's and other investments? We're trying to be good stewards, to increase that which we've been given, to establish something for the future. We didn't know enough to know that 3% per month was riduculous. We were "learning", through our education that it was possible and safe.
We did not increase our lifestyle. In fact, for the most part, we simply left the interest payments in the bank. In short, we paid a lot of money to learn things that we knew we needed to learn and in the process, we were misled. We take responsibility for our choices. Ultimately, we chose to do what we did. And yet, even Rick himself admits that fraud and deception are a whole different ball game. I'm beginning to think neither is scarce in the Franklin Squires world.
Mike, who is the principle of Vonco?
02/04/2008 01:32 PM by Trying to understand
what did everyone run and hide because they got their ip address looked at on Wade's site?
So what!
02/04/2008 01:36 PM by
I really liked this post about Rick Koerber. He articulated Rick's manipulation of the situation very well.
"Anyone ever heard one of these guys tell the story about his "dot-com" company? It's a clever act that uses a well known and widely felt financial melt-down to create a sympathetic narrative for him to disguise his disasterous business judgment, reprehensible ethical behavior, and torpedoed investors. To call what he was even doing here in WY a dot-com company is a stretch. Again it fits with the narrative that he was an innovative big-thinker who got broad sided by an outside market melt-down."
02/04/2008 02:22 PM by Low Risk = High Returns
Please don't laugh too hard while you watch this Prodcuer Revolution video featuring Rick, Wade, and the rest of the gang.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqNg7S8Ncnk
02/04/2008 06:08 PM by Laugh Out Loud
Looks like Vonco is owned by Bill Hoopes, who is a Franklin Squires employee.
https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/index search for VONCO HOLDINGS, LLC
02/04/2008 06:09 PM by Vonco
You are correct my good man Vonco is owned and operated by Bill Hoopes, I dont know in what way he is an employee but did not get any money for working with them or for them, he received money every month on his investment through founders capital and then would disburse to the investors that invested with Vonco, as of now there are about 32 investors with Vonco, some have been with them for years and as far as I, I only invested in july and have only received only about 2 full months of interest since then. But what i dont understand after the fact is that on Robert Paisolas web site that Rickhad made an agreement with the state of Utah that he would no longer take money for these type of investments, the operative word being he, he did not say anything about founders or any of these other companys taking money which is why he is a manipulative bastard, just finding ways to get around things which are dishonest. So in reality Bill should have never taken my money in the first place but flat out lied to me when i asked if there had ever been any problems in receiving payments, but I guess he was just as greedy as the rest of us but still they have my money somewhere but just figuring out who to start paying fist I guess, hell at this point i dont have a clue. Thanks for letting me vent guys.
02/04/2008 07:22 PM by Mike
Bill Hoopes was employed by FS, or at least he held a position there. I have no idea whether or not he received a paycheck from them. He worked for Lindsey Dayton in the Preferred Buyer program. I can't remember his title, but he "helped" people utilize their credit as a means of production. In other words, people like Poor Sap would buy properties at full market value and a FS company would either lease or "buy" it back subject to the existing financing. They would receive a payment upfront for their trouble, usually 2-5%. Bill also had a mortgage company. So, if you wanted to get a second mortgage, pull your equity out and invest it with a holding company, Bill could help you do that too.
So, Mike, Bill is suing FS and Rick! I'd sure like to talk to him. Do you have a phone number?
BTW, I don't think Bill could have shown you the PPM. He probably had to sign a non-disclosure. I know that others were required to do so.
02/04/2008 08:26 PM by Trying to understand
To trying to understand, I do have a phone number for him but dont really want to give it out over this web site, probably better that way because I dont think that you would get much information out of him about anything, he barely tells me anything and I am an investor in Vonco, all I get out of him is an e-mail about once a week that usually says the same thing,"we are just waiting on things so we can proceed to the next step" whatever that means. I would like to talk to you also, maybe through e-mail, would you like to do that maybe? You probably have info that would help me out also Iwas thinking about an attorney also but like you said we both have a legitimate claim but whether its worth spending the money to maybe get back the investment, Idont know.
02/04/2008 09:21 PM by Mike
Mike and Trying to understand:
If you would like, I can facilitate the exchange of your contact information as you may not want to post it on this blog. Email me at fraud.investigator1@gmail.com and I will exchange the information. Just offering.
02/04/2008 09:56 PM by
FYI concerning the Vonco discussion:
Case number 80400281 filed in Utah State Court, Provo District on 1/22/08.
Plaintiff Vonco LLC.
Defendants listed are:
Founders Capital
Claud R Koerber
CRK Central Management LLC
Rick Koerber LLC
Hill Erickson LLC
and New Castle Holdings LLC.
I don't believe the state court makes the actual complaint available in their online system. Anyone want to stop by the court and get copies? So I guess this is the next step someone above is being told to wait on?
02/04/2008 10:30 PM by
Should we call it "Justice Milling?"
02/04/2008 11:09 PM by will mill for food
Does anyone know the pros/cons of filing an "involuntary petition" for bankruptcy on behalf of these companies? One was recently filed for MNK Investments/Twin Peak Financial Services/Kenneth C Tebbs for the apparent purpose of preventing the further sale/transfer/hiding of real estate assets.
02/04/2008 11:11 PM by concerned family member
There were a couple of articles about Twin Peaks Financial Services (see note above) on KSL a couple of months ago, they had not yet figured out what Tebbs did w/ the money he had raised, payments to investors had stopped months before, based on post above it looks like now we know where the money went . . . Founders Capital is EVERYWHERE!
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=309&sid=2223178
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=309&sid=2327755
Two very interesting articles whose "next chapters" are now being told on this blog. This thing is blowing up, and blowing up everywhere you look.
02/05/2008 12:19 AM by
To Mike,
Yes, I'd like to talk to you. Email works for me.
I just re-read your first post, where you asked for someone who's holding company had signed the PPM and are still getting paid. The company I loaned to did sign and I'm still not getting paid. He says he doesn't know when he'll be able to begin sending payments again. I'm not sure that anyone is receiving any payments.
I know that at least some of those who have sold property to FS are not receiving monthly payments.
BTW, does anyone know whether or not there are other lawsuits pending against FS, Rick Koerber, Founders Capital, etc?
02/05/2008 07:54 AM by Trying to understand
I just hired collection agency to go after ~$30K that New Castle Holdings owe me for the leased property - unfortunately - won't hold my breath to get paid though.
02/05/2008 08:49 AM by PB
What are the differences between the original deals that were signed with Founders Capital and the new PPM deals that Founders wants to replace the old deals? I assume the PPM is not as beneficial to the investor as the original contracts?
02/05/2008 09:26 AM by
Oh...i was just remembering that very inspirational retreat we took last summer....wasn't that great?? Wade, you sure know how to inspire people... weren't we supposed to have a follow-up retreat six months later??
02/05/2008 09:32 AM by memories
PPM has risk disclosure and requires in most cases "qualified" (i forgot the real term for this) investors only (the ones with at least 2 years of $200K+ a year or liquid worh of $1M) some times they can open investing for up to 36 non-qualified while you have the vast majority of qualified.
02/05/2008 09:32 AM by PPM
The term you're looking for is "accredited investor".
In addition to detailing risk, etc. the new PPMs probably offer a lower interest rate. I haven't seen any of Founders PPMs, but I know that the regulators don't like guarantees of high returns. They would much rather see a guarantee of 12% per year or less and an option for profit sharing.
02/05/2008 10:43 AM by Trying to understand
The term is "accredited investors" - for more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_placement
02/05/2008 10:45 AM by PPM
PB,
Let us know if that's effective. New Castle Holdings owes me money for back rent as well.
02/05/2008 10:46 AM by Trying to understand
The PPM I signed said 3% month - but there is no guarantees whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the half of the PPM is the risk disclosures where it's reiterated 100 times that you can loose the entire investment. BTW, my PPM has nothing to do with FS and such
02/05/2008 11:02 AM by PPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkY16J_4Gpk&feature=related
Rick Koerber tells it like it is very interesting.
His quote" It's your fault your broke....no matter who has done what to you.. it doesn't matter who you have invested your money with...no matter who didn't pay you...If you have broke poverty idea's they willl translate into broke poverty.. Life"
I actually 100% agree with this statement! I knew these guy's were scammer's and ponzi's and wrote the state of utah securities division about them in detail when I got the sales pitch by their cronies. The letter I sent certified to the state securities was dated in August of 2006 to bad they didn't do anything some of you people would have been prevented from investing and using your broke idea's that lead to poverty.
The other thing Rick said was right all along was "turn your brain on" I kept telling that albeit in different terms, to the stupid overly zealous and ignorant people that were trying to "produce" in the ponzi's. All you sucker's that lost money it is your fault you were ignorant, trusting and greedy. The # 1 investment lesson you can learn is: Never blindly trust anyone. the number #2 is if someone tries to convince you they are a good christrian or whatever they are usually trying to screw you. # 3 You must understand cash flow and how the returns will be generated.
The "promoter's" never could satisfactorily answer # 3
In fact I told one gentleman who at the time had a respectable job which he left to promote full time " This is a ponzi scheme this will ruin your life all of your friends and family will hate you after they loose their money which will inevitably happen" And his retort was I know these guy's they have good character and are good mormon's. To which I told him "that is what I am afraid of"
02/05/2008 11:21 AM by Rick was right all along!
Everybody is scrambling to get rid of their promisary notes that they signed because it basically makes everybody a secured creditor of the fund. Anybody who has a signed promisary note has the person who signed them by the balls. By getting everybody who has a signed promisary note to agree to accept a PPM the funds can then lose the money with impunity. An "accredited investor" is somebody who can afford to lose money, and with a PPM in place instead of a promisary note, they money will still be gone and nobody will be able to do anything about it.
02/05/2008 11:35 AM by You'd never believe it if you didn't see it
Can someone explain what a PPM is?
02/05/2008 11:52 AM by I'm A Sucker
I'm a Sucker,
A PPM is a Private Placement Memorandum. It is a full disclosure of the investment and the investors behind it. In a nutshell, it tells an investor all of the risks and all of the reasons that they should not invest. It will state that your entire principle amount can be lost.
It is a fairly common document for those that are famaliar with private investments.
Rick Koerber doesn't like to follow the rules because he is not supposed to be raising any money after what happened to him in Wyoming. So he tried to operate under the radar by using others to collect the money for him. So he pays them 5% and they get to keep 2% just for writing a check for 3%.
Rick had zero regard for the limit of 35 unaccredited investors. Rick set up his whole empire to extract cash from the little guy. Hell, even his 21-Day Sale course involves the use of the holding fund. It is involved every step of the way, if you utilize his techniques in real estate.
Hopefully, the state will figure out what he was doing, and that he did it this way on purpose to get around the law. Rick is many things, but he is no dummy. He was not dumb in Wyoming and he is not dumb now. He does things for a reason.
Hopefully he will end up in Federal Prison so that he won't be able to continue to take advantage of unsophisticated investors through his Preferred Buyer and Holding Fund.
02/05/2008 12:07 PM by Dude
That is the reason we have the SEC, and that is the reason why there are income and net worth requirements in order to qualify in invest.
WIthout the SEC, can you imagine how many "Rick Koerbers" would be running around and collecting money from those that cannot afford to lose it?
I think any real sophisticated investor would laugh at Koerber. He won't show his books, and he won't event tell you exactly what he is investing in. There is also zero collateral. The whole thing operated off of the greed of the average person (which is normal). Who wouldn't want to earn 3% per month if it was legitimate. Unfortunately, Rick made it appear as a sure thing, and with no PPM people never really considered the fact that the payments could stop, and that they could lose all of their principle.
02/05/2008 12:14 PM by Dude
A PPM stands for Private Placement Memorandum. It's a document describing an investment opportunity, the associated risks, etc. When a business raises capital, a PPM protects them if the capital is lost. Like "You'd never believe it" stated above, it removes the risk for the one offering the investment. When you sign it, you agree that you understand the investment, you understand the risks and you're willing to go forward with the investment anyway. Then if the money is lost, you have no recourse.
It's much different that the way the promissory notes were issued where the issuers, either directly or indirectly communicated that there was very little risk, low risk/ high return, risks managed to near zero, etc.
If you have a promissory note and the company wants to issue a PPM, you have the option to exchange your current note for the new terms in the PPM (an exchange) or rescind. If you choose to rescind, you should be given the amount of your original principle back. Some at FS and other holding companies have stated that they are only required to give back the principle less any interest that's been paid. I asked an attorney who specializes in securities to verify the accuracy of that claim. He was emphatic that it is simply not true. When a company goes through an exchange offering, you have the right to rescind and have all of your capital returned. Two attorneys have advised me not to sign anything.
Let me be clear, I am not an attorney. This is simply my current understand as I've tried to learn what is actually happening here.
02/05/2008 12:17 PM by Trying to understand
I apologize if my previous post was redundant. I have a few interruptions while I was typing the post and Dude beat me to the punch. Thanks for your input Dude.
02/05/2008 12:19 PM by Trying to Understand
So, anyone who understands....since I have money with Atlas Capital...what does that have to do with the Franklin Squires stuff and Rick Koerber? What is his connection with Wade Sleater? Is Atlas Capital like FS? What was Sleater's intentions with my investment money in that PPM? Was some of my money connected with FS?
Anyone who knows, please post...
02/05/2008 12:27 PM by Concerned Investor
Concerned Investor,
From the the earlier posts it looks like Wade was putting the money into Founders Capital, but then he pulled it around August. That does not make sense to me because Founders Capital stopped paying around June, so how would he get the money back in August?
Who knows what he did with the money after that, or if he even got it back.
If you have money with Atlas you need to get a good lawyer as that thing is a complete mess.
02/05/2008 12:42 PM by Dude
Concerned Investor,
a few months a go wade was in a big rush to get everything shifted over to PPMs, and now we know why. If you have a signed promisary note with Wade's signature on it then you are essentailly a secured investor in Atlas Capital. This isn't to say that Atlas Capital is liquid enough to be able to pay you, through Wade's other companies he has enough money out there floating that he'll eventually be able to recoup at least a portion of what you want. Here's the thing though, your beef with now with Wade Sleater and not with Atlas Capital. By signing the promisary note Wade put his own butt on the line.
Here's the first thing you need to do. Get an attorney, and a good one. Wade is going to throw some B.S. at you about Atlas Capital being liable and not himself. While this is partially true, if you get the Atlas Capital bank records you'll be able to find some good standing for making a case of fraud.
The next thing you need to know is where Wade has ownership interests in. Atlas Marketing is a great starting point, except it's completely worthless right now. But here's the kicker... There's a residual payment that Atlas SHOULD be collecting from Dish Network. I say should because I've heard Dish has shut it off, but if somebody were to be pretty industrious they probably could get the flow of money turned back on. Triad Investments, Copia, First Pillar Properties, Decade Media, Amp Gym, Engenuity and Foundations Insurance all have had Wade as a part owner at one point, if not currently.
Everybody who is close to Wade says we need to leave him alone so he can "produce" enough to repay everybody back. We're getting close to the 6 month mark and nobody has been paid yet. Time for leaving him alone is over, it's time for people to go on the offensive.
02/05/2008 12:45 PM by You'd never...
"If you have a signed promisary note with Wade's signature on it then you are essentailly a secured investor in Atlas Capital"
You'd never,
So if I have promissory note from New Castle Holdings signed by Rick Koerber, does it mean that i am "secured investor" in New Castle Holdings as well? In october, New Castle (Rick) issued those notes to a lot of "preferred buyers" (myself included) for the missing payments in August and September.
02/05/2008 01:17 PM by PB
karma will get these guys. rick k will learn what real principles are all about soon. he will be shut down any anyone who thinks his way. the gig is up.
02/05/2008 02:10 PM by let it roll.
"If you have a signed promisary note with Wade's signature on it then you are essentailly a secured investor in Atlas Capital"
The statement above is pure bullshit. In order to be a secured investor in this transaction you must have a signed and properly executed security agreement and you must have filed a financing statement with the Utah Dept of Commerce. Unless you have taken these steps you are not a "secured". A promissory note means almost zilch. Nice try though.
02/05/2008 02:30 PM by Don't "paize" me bro!
What reason would anyone have to sign a PPM if they are already not getting paid? What do these holding companies give as the reason for making everyone wait, if any. Do they imply that everyone needs to sign the PPM so that they can get everyone paid?
It seems as if there is a little dance going on here, nobody wants to say that everyone won't get paid even though they are'nt paying them, and even though they are'nt paying them they want them to sign something saying they might not ever get paid!
02/05/2008 03:19 PM by Con-foosed?
Thanks for the PPM explaination (both of them). That clarifies parts of this discussion.
I find it interesting how Koerber allegedly set things up. I'm friends with a fomer employee of Koerbers who has lost a lot of money and ruined his credit by getting involved with Founders. This person told me that Koerber has things set up pretty tight so that if anything happened, Rick wouldn't take the fall or get into any legal trouble. I don't know if that's true or if that was just frustration talking.
I also apperciate the post explaining how Koerber was/is allededly getting around some of the legal requirements regarding raising capital. That being the case, can anyone commment on Koerber's essay about investing with him on the Free Capitalist website? See "Did You Invest with Rick Koerber?"
Is what Koerber's saying techincally true or is this just a cover your ass essay?
02/05/2008 03:39 PM by I'm A Sucker
In my opinion, he's just covering.
He says that you can't invest with Rick Koerber and that is probably technically true. However, I know that people were offered an opportunity to invest in holding companies while attending a Franklin Squires introductory meeting. In fact, I have a friend who invested with one of Rick's partners that way. He attended an introductory seminar, listened to their presentation on Equity Milling, creating safe returns of 2-5% per month, etc. and was then offered an opportunity to make a loan to one of the partners. And, all the while, the money was really being raised so that it could ultimately be sent to Founders Capital. At least that's my understanding of the situation. So, technically, my friend didn't invest with or in Rick. But, it's an awfully fine line if you ask me.
In fact, I've heard the term "Black Pool". Apparently it's a securities term used to describe this very thing, that is, downlines raising money that ultimately is destined for the same company. If anyone know more about this, I'd be interest in hearing it.
It's no coincidence that there are dozens, if not hundreds of people who all think Rick taught the things he denies teaching. It's because he did teach those things. He was just very careful to make sure that he did it in a way that wouldn't incriminate him when this all fell apart.
Rick is brilliant. I'm sure he has things tightly structured for his own maximum protection. The only thing I don't understand is why Founders didn't have a PPM until recently. That left them very exposed. It doesn't seem to fit.
02/05/2008 04:26 PM by Trying to Understand
Don't "paize" me bro,
There's a reason I used essentially as a modifer to secured creditor. You're right by the technicality of the statement, you have to file everything with the state to be truly secured, but it still has a similar effect as a secured note. I've had two different securities attorneys look at mine and both have told me that it gives me a much stronger position than an unsecured creditor and will allow me to go after the signer personally as well.
02/05/2008 05:01 PM by You'd never...
You'd never ...,
Would you mind posting the names of the attorneys you spoke with? It's hard to find good attorneys.
02/05/2008 05:07 PM by
You ask why Rick did not use the PPM format to begin with...here's one man's jaded OPINION:
This entire scheme was based on NOT disclosing the nature of the investments or the risks being taken or the lack of recourse if things went sour or the amounts of money being made by those soliciting money and/or facilitating the "equity milling" transactions to get funds to invest, etc. A PPM is a legal document with very exacting legal requiremenst of what goes in it, much like the Prospectus you get periodically from any mutual fund you might own telling all about the fund. I think that if a true PPM had been involved in the beginning of this scheme then Rick's minions would not have been able to "sell" using the principals of obfuscation that were employed, not to mention the "Black Box" would have been opened up and people would have been MUCH less likely to fall for the promise of principled riches trickled down through enlightened Holding Companies from a benevolent investment prophet to his ultimate followers. A PPM is like a Prospectus for "limited" investments and the declarations it would have required would have shed a crippling light on these deals. Lastly, I think that once you have established a PPM you have to register it with the state AND your salespeople have to be licensed and registered securities brokers and have to follow rules when soliciting business, rules that are designed to protect the investor and ensure honesty and integrity in the sales process (correct me on that as I'm not sure.) Can you imagine the goatee army trying to pass the Series 7 and Series 66 exams and having to actually disclose risk and processes and compensation and having to deal with everyone equally? It could not have happened. They did not start w/ the PPM because they could not have started with a PPM and still raised any $. They started by selling unregistered securities and once they had collected the money they tried to pull a bait-and-switch to a more transparent environment where they should have begun in the first place. Unfortunatley the damage is already done -- the PPM is an attempt to change "the deal" in favor of the Holding Companies and Founders Capital and give the appearance of legitimacy before the state files their charges.
02/05/2008 05:33 PM by
To the poster above, that was an excellent explanation.
People need to know how this man thinks and operates. He is very calculated and loves to play dumb or recite his "I'm just trying to be a capitalist, and the socialist government is responsible for the problems of my business."
02/05/2008 06:27 PM by
Yeah, the Free Capitalist himself playing the victim!
He is very calculated and loves to play dumb or recite his "I'm just trying to be a capitalist, and the socialist government is responsible for the problems of my business."
02/05/2008 06:58 PM by Trying to Understand
You guys certainly follow this more than me, but from what I've heard in just a few radio programs and read on freecapitalist.com web site I don't really think he's playing the victim at all, he's just plain denying he has anything to do with anything but opinionated political debate and the spread of good old-fashioned capitalistic idealogy. To hear him tell it there are no investors, teachings of equity milling were theoretical in nature, he doesn't know who these darn Holding Companies are, he doesn't know where the tens of millions of dollars he has came from and shouldn't be expected to know, and he owes noone a thing. I would describe his demeaner more as yelling as loudly as possible about FreeCapitalist theology in hopes that it drowns out the noise of Founders Capital / Holding Companies altogether. I don't think he plays dumb, I don't think he is dumb, to the contrary I'm sure that his IQ is twice mine (that would put him solidly in the 80s), I think he's putting into place the "worst case scenario" planning that he did years ago when he mapped out the Founders Capital / Holding Companies / Real Estate Education portions of his business. He got b***h slapped by the SEC in Wyoming and he decided to take another stab at raising money, but this time he was going to protect himself by taking all the money but assuming none of the liability -- it probably won't work in the end but it will buy him several years of plausible denyability. The only way Rick gets nabbed is if the Holding Company dudes turn on him, and it sounds like at least a couple of them are already doing so based on recent posts to this blog.
Rick and Gabe talk from time to time about Risk Management -- his investors are about to get Risk Management'ed out of their money, their credit and their belief in their fellow man.
02/05/2008 07:44 PM by
Have you written an e-mail giving your e-mail address to the fraud investigator yet? I havent yet myself, let me know if and when you do. Does anybody know what "Les Pendens" are? I just received some info on Voncos lawsuit.
02/05/2008 07:46 PM by Mike
les pendens is a warning on the title that says "let the buyer beware." It typically means that the property is involved in a lawsuit.
02/05/2008 07:54 PM by
A "les pendens" or "lis pendens" is a document filed in the public records that notifies any prospective purchaser of property that there is litigation pending that could effect title to the property. They are most often seen in mortgage foreclosures, but are used in other actions such as boundary disputes, eminent domain matters, and easement litigation.
02/05/2008 08:15 PM by PB
Rick was talking to Les McGuire one day about some of the protective measures he had put in place to prevent "unscrupulus (sp?) and unprincipled people" from causing his business harm and how he had done his best to keep the socialist government officials that had messed up his last business out of his business. At the time I was rather impressed with what Rick had said. Apparently Rick's lawyers hadn't thought of putting PPMs in place earlier because if he had then all of this talk would just be pissed off people b***hing about how they got screwed but there wouldn't be much anybody could do about it.
Rick is right... you will never find an audio clip or video clip of him even suggesting that you pull one dollar out of your house and put it into a holding fund. That's what the network of people around him did. I've heard Garrett Gunderson, Wade Sleater, and even back in the day, Les McGuire, tell people that the equity in their houses could be made to be much more productive in a fund. And while Rick can claim he never told anybody to pull the equity out of their houses to put it into a holding fund, he is the proprieter of the Equity Mill and while I'm not up to date on their current practices, I know personally at least 6 people who went through the FranklinSquires program (at a cost of $5,000 a pop if I remember correctly) between 2005 and 2006 where the concept of Equity Milling and putting those resources to work by giving it to other "producers" was taught.
Rick Koerber is a control freak. He NEVER would outsource anything to anybody if he could create a company around it. He bought a radio station and built a studio in his East Bay office so that he could completely control the whole process top to bottom. He started his own real estate brokerage. He started his own media company. He hired his own programmers. There's nothing that happens in the world of Rick Koerber that Rick Koerber doesn't control and he's made sure that's the way it is. He even engineered the whole system so that he can be completely disassociated from everything when the shiz hits the fan.
I haven't seen it, but I've been told that Rick created a replica of the Oval Office for himself. If it's true, how many dollars did that take to pull off?
02/05/2008 08:26 PM by You'd never...
DID WADE SLEATER STARTED A NEW BUSINESS WITH SCOTT MILLER
Miller & Wade Group
3311 N. University Ave. Suite 275
Provo, Utah 84601
Voice: 801.377.1990
Toll-Free Voice: 800.508.1144
Fax: 801.377.2050
Toll-Free Fax: 888.205.0792
Salt Lake Office: 800-508-1144
St. George Office: 1620 East 1450 South, Suite 17
St. George, UT 84790
Voice: 435.862.7685
Fax: 435.578.8017
Email Us: info@millerwade.com
02/05/2008 08:33 PM by Wade is that you??
Mike, I've read and appreciate your candid and thoughtful entries. I understand that everybody is in a different place in the process here and I don't fault anybody for finding their own way forward so don't take this personally . . . I wonder why folks choose not to contact the investigators and tell them their experiences? I suspect it's just a matter of timing and waiting for it all to sink in and get ones thoughts sufficiently organized? Again, nonjudgemental, just wondering.
02/05/2008 08:34 PM by
Wade, is working on selling insurance with Foundations Insurance with a man by the name of Darron Miller. Look them up. You should be able to talk to Wade there. Ryan Sleater and Jordan SLEATER-shields his brother and sister are working with him as well. But not Jon...he's not a Sleater!!!
Grandma got run over by Wade Sleater - Christmas Tune
02/05/2008 08:36 PM by Jordan
WADE IS WORKING FOR THE ONE IN PLEASENT GROVE WITH MILLER: He has a lot of good ideas on how to invest your money. You should call the company and ask them what experience Wade has...you will be SHOCKED!!!!!!!
Foundations Insurance-American Fork Foundations Insurance - Pleasant Grove
359 E Main Street 63 E State
American Fork, UT 84003 Pleasant Grove,UT 84062
801-763-5400 801- 785-4711
Foundations Insurance - Provo Foundations Insurance - Sandy
3575 N 100 E 9890 South 300 West, Suite 300
Provo, UT 84604 Sandy, UT 84070
(801) 818-3800 (801) 304-7753
Foundations Insurance - St. George
20 N Main Street #327
St George, UT 84770
(435) 773-6305
02/05/2008 08:42 PM by SHOCKER
MillerWade has been around for a couple of decades and I've heard very good things about their insurance brokerage. I'd chalk the naming similarities up to coincidence. There's plenty of opportunity to slime people for good reason, no need to make such a stretch with seemingly no good reason.
02/05/2008 08:43 PM by
To make an anonymous call - do what Wade does: Dial *67 wait for a new dial tone and then dial. it will show up as unknown on other end. Try it on your own Phone and then try calling Foundations and asking about Wade's experience and record...SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!!
02/05/2008 08:45 PM by Tricks of the trade:
MillerWade is not Sleater. But the Insurance above is!! I agree call them and ask what experience Wade has. We called and yes! We were schocked to say the least.
02/05/2008 08:52 PM by pitanga
Wow, much better looking than I expected!
02/05/2008 08:52 PM by Hillary Clinton
Foundations Insurance 359 E Main St, American Fork, UT 84003
(801) 763-5400 AIG, Foremost, Safeco, Travelers, Victoria
Wade has partnered with Miller on this one and they are working on a new project!!
02/05/2008 08:54 PM by sorb
Mike,
I haven't given my email to fraud investigator. I suspect that he might be Robert Paisola, and I'm just not comfortable with him having my info. Like Rick, he has a past and claims to be rehabilitated, but I have no desire to jump out of the frying pan, into the fire. Do you have another idea of how we can exchange contact info?
02/05/2008 09:45 PM by Trying to Understand
Yeah - "fraud Investigator" has been way too excited about things and I am happy that very few people have utilized that other blog site that he setup. If it is Paisola I for sure would be not give him ANY info. He is scary. He claims that he was going to invest or his family was going to invest $1M....I find it hard to believe he has $1M to invest anywhere. He is about one thing - PROMOTING HIMSELF. He has no dog in this fight, he is a vulture hovering above and waiting for opportunity. I'd take my chances with Koerber before geting involved with Paisola the "fraud investigator".
02/05/2008 10:20 PM by For real
I'd bet David Doerr could help facilitate the email exchange, After-all you've all helped drive his Active Rain blog/site to the top of the Active Rain charts. he is pretty much THE Active Rain Rockstar. All others are in awe of his hit & post count. Three cheers for Wade!! He's PRODUCED a ton of traffic for Active Rain and David Doerr.
02/05/2008 10:23 PM by just a idea
Unfortunately it doesn't get me a whole lot, even my SEO was better months ago.
I guess I am not a very good "producer".
02/05/2008 10:34 PM by David Doerr
I will exchange emails if all interested parties will email me.
02/05/2008 10:35 PM by David Doerr
I've had contact with Fraud Investigator he (or she?) is not Robert Paisola. Seems like someone who is just interested in helping. He's been helpful to me, for whatever it's worth.
02/05/2008 10:51 PM by
Come on, Dave. Give yourself some credit. No, you aren't the typical "producer," but I bet you could make a video and put it on YouTube and be just as successful. You're a ROCKSTAR in all our eyes!!
"I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!!"
02/06/2008 12:45 AM by Bill
Did you do a capital lease on the Stratus or did you pay all cash.
You do know that it is poor stewardship to pay all cash, when you could finance it and "put that money to work"
02/06/2008 09:02 AM by Safely earn 1-5% a month on your cash
To Gorka;
The only way that was his worst week to date is if he took all this money and bet it on the Patriots.
02/06/2008 10:10 AM by
Foundations Insurance was created by purchasing two VERY reputable and profitable existing insurance agencies. Wade was a silent partner in Foundations until things started going bad with his other ventures. Most employees knew very little, if anything, up to that point about Wade.
The employees of the two purchased agencies have done everything within their power to make sure the business written by them (not employees hired after Foundations took over) continued to be written in a professional ethical manner. This is in no way any defense for Wade, in fact, since Wade is no longer a silent partner, some of the employees have left Foundations. There are five current employees of Foundations who are dedicated to making sure everything stays above board and do not want to see anything happen to insureds they have worked with for years.
Please do not judge all of Foundations based on Wade obtaining an insurance license. There are still those employed by Foundations who feel at times as if they are fighting an uphill battle.
02/06/2008 10:49 AM by
What needs to be known about Foundations Insurance is this. If you do business with them, money will be put in Wade's pocket. And as we all know by now, Wade won't use that money to pay people back, he'll just use it to enjoy his own pleasures. Doing business with Nuvont Communications, Foundations Insurance, Engenuity or Amp Gym will be giving money to Wade Sleater.
If you really want to know what Wade is like, you need to talk to the people who used to work for him. He's your friend as long as it is convenient for him but as soon as he has no need for you he has very little regard for you. It's the same thing with his investors, and in fact, it's doubly insulting when you are not only an investor but an employee as well.
02/06/2008 11:20 AM by
Mike,
I'm happy to give my info to David. Is that agreeable to you?
02/06/2008 11:21 AM by Trying to Understand
Is the Darron Miller whose now in business with Wade, the same Darron Miller who taught with Garrett in August?
02/06/2008 11:24 AM by Trying to Understand
Those Darron Millers are both the same people. Darron also is the late Les McGuire's cousin.
02/06/2008 11:34 AM by
Any money Wade makes will surely be going to his lawyers to try and keep his ass out of prison. It won't be going to investors.
Don't worry about Rick Koerber, I have him locked up in my basement. He won't be equity milling his way out of this !!
02/06/2008 12:37 PM by FranklinScammers
A little piece of not such a good news: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8174346 :
"Amid concerns of mismanagement, too many unfair prosecutions and an ongoing state audit, the director of the Utah Division of Securities is stepping down."
02/06/2008 01:30 PM by PB
Koerber seems to be very excited about this news, he is pounding on my basement door to let him out. I don't know how much longer I can hold it.
02/06/2008 01:38 PM by FranklinScammers
lol
02/06/2008 03:25 PM by PB
Yeah, I was afraid this would happen. What we are witnessing may well be the political muscle of those who have money, and make significant contributions to political campaigns. While some who have been investigated may be innocent, it could allow those not so innocent to sneak by in the wake of supposed misconduct on the agency's part. It may not be enough to contact only the agency's who investigate fraud, but additionally, put pressure on elected officials to counteract the weight of big money, and well paid lawyers.
Is it any coincidence that the closer the investigation gets to the main players, now the investigators themsleves are brought into question?
02/06/2008 04:09 PM by
To trying to understand, yes that would be fine I dont have a problem with that. Does that sound good to you David?
02/06/2008 05:41 PM by Mike
Does anyone know if michelle koerber has a blog site and what it is?
02/06/2008 05:43 PM by
To Mike,
David offered to facilitate the exchange, so I don't think it will be a problem.
As for Michelle Koerber's blog, i just came across it a couple of days ago: here's the link:
http://michellekoerber.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-it-is-difficult-for-me-to-post.html
02/06/2008 09:19 PM by Trying to Understand
Wow, what an arrogant blog entry! Sounds like a female Rick.
02/06/2008 09:43 PM by How Amusing
I wonder if these should be added to the 13 principles of prosperity.
http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/
02/07/2008 12:02 AM by Adding Humor
And it shall come to pass that in the last days there shall arise many false profits. These profits shall lay in wait and decieve many, mixing the philosophies of men with the truth of God. The profits shall decieve even the elect, for pride has the ability to kill the soul.
Anyone else?
02/07/2008 12:10 AM by The Book of the Profits
1. Once you have their money ... never give it back.
10. Greed is eternal.
21. Never place friendship above profit.
41. Profit is its own reward.
99. Trust is the biggest liability of all.
121. Everything is for sale, even friendship.
144. There's nothing wrong with charity ... as long as it winds up in your pocket.
181. Not even dishonesty can tarnish the shine of profit.
189. Let others keep their reputation. You keep their money.
202. The justification for profit is profit.
261. A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.
266. When in doubt, lie.
These are the true principals of prospertity that Rick and Wade believe in. I think #1 is all telling. Get their money and never give it back.
I'm sure that Michelle Koerber doesn't read this because it's got to be fairly upsetting to read so much garbage about her husband, but on the off chance she does read this...
Michelle, You claim that your husband is the kindest, most honest person you know. Do you know that many people? Rick has a Napoleon complex like you wouldn't believe. (And I'm not talking about dynamite) I'm sure he keeps it in check when you're around because it wouldn't be good for his wife to see his ego run unchecked. I've seen Rick fly off the handle at people on more than one occasion for trivial things. He once berated the engineer of his radio show because they played the drop for his segment a second later than they were supposed to. Is this the act of a kind person? I'm sure if he likes you that he's kind enough.
The honest thing is troubling because Rick's moral compass appears to be broken. If Rick were truly honest, instead of blaming his problems on a socialist government, he'd own up to the mistakes he's made and tell people how he was going to fix them. If he was honest, he'd be the first person to put his head on the chopping block instead of making sure that there was a long line of capos in the way to do it for him. If he was honest, instead of forcing everybody to sign a PPM so that he can lose their money with impunity, he'd honor the agreements he has made. Rick may be honest to you, and if he is I applaud it, because he isn't being honest with everybody else.
If you really think that Rick is the smartest person you know, you need to meet new people. Rick is a very talented speaker, and he is a good idea man, but when it comes to execution, he has no brains. I know a team of accountants and lawyers who would say that Rick Koerber is the stupidest man they know. I guess it's all in the perspective.
02/07/2008 01:44 AM by The Rules of Acquistion
Anyone that has any involvement with Koerber/Sleater/Wheeler really needs to contact the Utah Division of Securities. The cheif investigator for these guys is Michael Hines. He can be reached at (801)530-6600. Alternatively, you can make a complaint of fraud on-line by using the website below. Once they receive it he will appoint an investigator to you and they will contact you for further information. As I have posted on here before, Mr. Hines is well aware of exactly what has happened and what is occuring right now. He beleives strongly that these guys are all tied together and appear to be seperate "lines" but are tied together like a "multi-level marketing ponzi scheme", and yes I used quotes because those were his words not mine. Trust me, I have been down this road before and have spent tens of thousands of dollars on attorneys fees making a fraud claim. I do strongly encourage anyone who has lost significan money with these crooks to hire a good lawyer for advice and direction however you can leave the heavy lifting up to the Utah Division of Securities and let them finance the pursuit of justice on your behalf.
http://www.securities.utah.gov/index.html
02/07/2008 03:07 AM by Sleater Hater
Michelle,
Of course Rick is a great guy, he tells everyone at his seminars how he bought you a diamond necklace that pays for itself.
You have lived a very rich life by living off of profits from investor money. Many of your investors no longer have a house, and they can't even get an honest eplanation from Rick. Your blog that "Rick is the nicest guy I know" is a slap in their face.
Maybe people are angry because they went to your husbands seminar in search of knowledge to lead a better life. They made an investment with the understanding that their money was flowing through the individual and the money was going to Rick. Then Rick goes on the radio and says "You didn't invest with me!!"
02/07/2008 08:02 AM by FranklinScammers
Sleater Hater,
You state that you've spent tens of thousands of dollars filing a fraud claim. He go on to state that we should let the authorities do the heavy hitting. I'm just wondering if, in your situation, you were able to recover any money? Several attorneys have said that winning a suit won't be a problem, but collecting probably will be challenging. What's your experience?
02/07/2008 08:45 AM by Trying to Understand
To Mike,
I just want to let you know that I've sent my email to David. I'm looking forward to communicating with you soon.
02/07/2008 09:37 AM by Trying to Understand
The Rules of Acquistion is right. Rick Koerber talks a good talk but it ends there. He can't give up control to someone who actually knows what he or she is doing. Instead he has to micro manage everything and nothing gets done, his businesses lose money, and then he blames the problems on others. It's no wonder he's in the situtaiton he's in.
As for Michelle's post, I think it reveals a lot more than she meant to. Lawsuits, employee disatisfaction, overpaid employees, etc. Anyone associated with this mess should run away as fast as they can.
02/07/2008 09:39 AM by I'm A Sucker
Does anyone have any info on two main points that should be made clear?
-Where is the connection between Atlas Capital and Founders Capital? Was Wade Sleater investing with Rick Koerber? Was Engenuity encouraging a circular/ incestuous investing plan? I know that the idea from Sleater's camp was to employ young guys to go make $10k over the summer and then lure them in to giving the money back to Wade through Atlas Capital... so in the same vein, was all of this money just basically going around in circles, and being used by Sleater and Koerber and company to fund their high-roller lifestyles?
-Where did Wade Sleater's assets go? Someone on here has to know details. Does he have the assets in his wifes/sisters/fathers names or all of the above? Is he protected because of LLCs? Are the assets in his estate or trust protected? Is is bankruptcy going to protect him from ever paying out?
02/07/2008 11:10 AM by I have questions....you have answers...please share....
I share a lot of your questions, and unfortunately I'm still looking for the answers. I've been talking with an attorney recently and I asked the question about bankruptcy. Bankruptcy can protect against liability, but does not necessarily offer protection, at least according to this attorney. If fraud has been commited, then bankruptcy will not protect the perpetrators.
02/07/2008 11:15 AM by Trying to Understand
Does anyone know anything about Paul Bouchard w/ Hunters Capital? Any investors of his out there that also doubt ever seeing any money?
02/07/2008 02:15 PM by ...Also screwed
When I visited this page just now I noticed that a recent registered user who had vistied this page was "Rick K".
Everyone say Hi to the Free Capitalist!
Rick, feel free to defend yourself!
02/07/2008 03:49 PM by Not Rick
To my knowlege, Wade was with Wheeler at the end and not Koerber. Wheeler did not like Koerber and said he was a crook (ironic isn't it). Now Wheeler says Sleater is a crook (again the irony). Wheeler is broke he says because Sleater had millions of "his" money and didn't pay back according to the promissory notes he signed with Wheeler's hard money fund. By the way some of the notes were 48% APY and higher.
The best I can figure out is like this:
Rex would go to investors (guys like Poor Sap) and say, "Hey I have this great real estate program where you can acquire real estate with no money down and nothing on your credit it is called a Capital Lease. Now when you get in this you are going to negative cash flow on these properties because we are going to borrow money on other people's credit to the tune of 10+%. You will also pay them a fee for using their credit. And oh by the way since we are so good and creative you pay us $1,250.00 to have the honor of working with us. Now since you are going to negative cash flow, sell your house to another "investor" on a capital lease and we can get it appraised for an inflated value (he wouldn't say this but they did). Oh and by the way on this side of the transaction you pay us $250.00 again because we are so good and creative. Get all of your "equity" out of your home and put it in this great hard money fund I have where I will pay you 24% on your cash. With that cash flow and all of the tax savings, you will be wealthy in a few years."
Investor would say: "Uhhhhh OK, sounds good to me"
Wheeler would then go and lend out money to Sleater and others at ridiculously high interest rates hoping they would pay. When they didn't, this whole thing started to crumble. Of course according to Wheeler, everyone else screwed him, not his fault he is just in a poor situation. Sounds like there are a lot of similarities between Koerber and Wheeler, Koerber just had many more layers in my opinion.
02/07/2008 05:28 PM by
One last point to the post above, you might ask how does investor meet Rex?
This is where Gunderson (or one of his understudies) comes in.
Gunderson: "I am brilliant and a multi-millionaire, you need me as your financial expert. I have a cool website, speak to a lot of people, drive a Bentley, and one hell of a shoe collection."
Investor: "Well you sure look smart, and gosh those are great shoes! What do you recommend?"
Gunderson: "You need to talk to Rex Wheeler to reduce your tax liability, he has this innovative way to buy real estate. We've had many brilliant minds in our circle of experts look at this and it works under all tests, I am the multi millionaire expert."
Investor: "OK Garrett (read this as him or any of his understudies except for the cool car and shoes), I will call this real estate maven. You are the expert and you tell me you are a multi millionaire on your way cool YouTube video, so it must be true. What is Rex's number?"
02/07/2008 08:36 PM by
Interesting press release on the UT Securities site regarding VesCor Capital Corp and Val E Southwick to the tune of $140M. I haven't had a chance to review it all, but sounds like a very similar scam....
http://www.securities.utah.gov/press/vescor.htm
02/07/2008 09:17 PM by concerned family member
I really appreciate that explanation by the poster above about Sleater-Wheeler connection. That was about as enlightening as this blog has been for me. Now, how much of that could be seen as illegal or a scam?
02/07/2008 09:32 PM by very interesting
Sad to say, Wade probably won't go down for any of this. The guy above took 140m of people's money, there are too many people who have done this scam on a larger scale for investigators to waste time with Wade. Rick also learned his lesson when his "dot com" company went under and he lost his first fortune. He is probably totally isolated and protected from his Franklin Squires scams. The other problem is that a lot of the people who lost money probably won't come forward because they feel like it was their own fault for investing in such an obvious scam and will chalk it up to "expensive education". Also when Wade starts doing well on his next scam, cause you know he will find one, those people will just sign up with him again when he gives his repentant confession of his past mistakes. Take Rick for example, he stands there and tells investors about going bankrupt and losing everything in Wyoming, basically owning up to everything he did wrong. And people love it because they feel like he is being so honest. talk about a scam artist.
02/07/2008 10:04 PM by
Where did you com up with Wade taking "140m of people's money?"
02/07/2008 10:12 PM by
You might be surprised how little protection some of these guys may actually find they have if those who choose to go after them retain competent legal representation.
The following page contains several examples of how some creditors have argued to have the debtor and their corporate treehouse fortress considered a single entity for the purpose of litigation:
http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/a2_asset_protection_entities_alter_ego.htm
It will be interesting in the end to see how it all plays out.
02/07/2008 10:32 PM by
Wade Sleater shows zero remorse for all the hurt he has caused to thousands and thousands of people. In fact he spends all day thinking how he can blame it on other people and justify what has happened. It's the people's fault for investing the money with him he says. He tuly has no clue how many lives he has destoyed because of his choices and he has no idea how many more lives are being destroyed as time goes on. Wade has reached a point were he is deceived in his own mind. He has also done a fabulous job at convincing and deceiving his family that he didn't do anything wrong...it was everyone else that wronged me he says. You guys need to wake up and start repairing all the damage that you have created. You have hurt a lot of families.
02/07/2008 11:27 PM by Hurt
I absolutely agree with Hurt. I lost a lot of money investing with Wade...and while it was a poor investment....he was absolutely deceptve and absoltely slimey about this all. I am learning my lesson...is Wade? No!!!! We can't get a hold of him!! For someone who is not at fault, he has been really shady for quite some time now.
What needs to happen, is for everyone hurt and scammed by Wade....needs to find the others (lets be honest, we were mostly introduced by family and friends) ....and TALK TO THE STATE SECURITIES OFFICE.... let's get together and get lawsuits filed....does anyone have the list of investors? Let's contact them, and make sure no one is staying silent. If Wade is as innocent as he claims...the truth will not hurt him....He should be ready to work with us!!!
Everyone find someone else, and let's go make our side heard!! You are not the only one out there...and and perhaps without you....Wade and others like him will get away with this!!!
02/07/2008 11:46 PM by big hurt
He feels remorse. He was in Disney World with his family when Atlas Marketing went under. There was $0 in the Atlas Marketing account and Wade was in Disney World. What a leader. His response...for the first time in my lfe I was putting my family first. Wrong...you put your family last because you chose to be irresponsible with your investor's money and your businesses.
02/07/2008 11:57 PM by Remorse
About "alter ego" - every lawer even remotely connected with corporate law is aware about that. When I formed my 1st LLC this was the first thing I was told by the lawer who was actualy an estate lawer and I am absolutely sure that Wade and Rick are well familiar with the concept of the peircing the corporate veil. This technique was succefully used in a lot of cases - all they have to show id the corporate structure is artificially created to mask the person behind all decision making the LLC the persons second nature (alter ego.) This is in my layman terms how I understood this.
To the people who are afraid that all those "great leaders" will escape the procecution i have one word: SEC. The worse that could happen to any of these corporate "baricaders" is investigation from SEC - not state level group - because the first thing SEC does that could literraly kill all of them - is to freeze all their assets. I am involved in one of the similar funds who actually did invest in the real estate and ended up giving close to the $10M to the guy who turned out to be complete fraud about one 6 months ear before all wade's/rick's !@#$ hit the fan. SEC came around and froze all the assets of that guy. As a result anybody who had their money "invested" with him got their money frozen. it takes about 9-12 month to do all the investigation and establish receivership and so on and so forth - meanwhile there is no business activity whatsoever. This kind of action could undermine Wade or Rick or just about anybody even if at the end of the investigation feds would find no wrongdoing. No LLC can protect from the frozen assets - this the ultimate weapon that our goverment can use if they choose to.
I am thinking if enough people would decide to form a class for the class action law suit - it might trigger SEC's investigation. I really did not wanna mention all this but it looks like this is the only way to get those "leaders" to feel other peoples pain. I am still not sure if this is too harsh or just about right.
02/08/2008 12:19 AM by PB
To: Trying to Understand:
To answer your question, the example I used above is a completely unrelated case from what we are discussing here; Sleater/Wheeler/Koerber. However my suit is not over yet so no monies yet recovered. In my situation, I am fairly confident that my claim is collectible. However your attorneys are absolutely correct in that it may not matter if you have a rock solid claim if there is nothing to collect. That is a risk/reward decision each individual has to make on their own. The most important thing before a decsion is made is to undersatand as much as you possibly can about the assets and net worth of the individual so that you can determine wether it is worth it or not to pursue the claim. With these guys it becomes more difficult than with the average person because of how they have title (or equitable title) to propereties. For example, Rex would tell you he owns or has ownership in 1200, 1500, 1700? properties (which I can tell you for a fact it was complete bullshit) however he was in a "tenant" position on almost if not all of these properties for tax benefits. Since Wade defaulted on his payments to Rex, and Rex could no longer make the rent payments on these propereties he has defaulted on all of those lease agreements and therefore has no ability to excercise his options to purchase the properties and there went any equity he might have had in those homes. Most of his net worth vanished at that time. I have already done alot of my due diligence on both of these guys and at this point I can tell you unfortunately Rex has nearly no assets. He is being investigated for fraud (as well as wade) and regardles wether he is found guilty or not he will never be able to obtain any type of state liscences, etc. and in my opinion will most likely never be in a position to earn the type of income he will have to to pay everyone back anything substantive. When these guys file bankruptcy they need to post schedules of all corporations, partners, assets, bank accts, stocks, investments, pretty much everything down to deposits they have with public utility providers and the clothes on their back. This is given under penalty of perjury with a fine of $500k and/or 5 yrs in prison so they can't play alot of games. Rex pretty much has nothing according to him, assuming he has not committed perjury. Sleater as far as I know has only filed bankruptcy for 2 of his 55 companies he has registered (24 are expired or inactive). However Wade will be forced into personal bankruptcy and at that time he will have to undress. It is highly unlikely that he can pull out of this one without filing personally due to the enormous PERSONAL debt he owes. When he does, everyone will have a much better understanding as to his net worth. Unfortunately I think alot of people will be suprised as to how little he actually has. He was highly leveraged and blew alot of money (other peoples) on the cars, etc. etc. It has been reported on this blog that Wade did some last minute shuffling of assets to get them out of his name however that should be discovered since those types of transcations are void within 90 days from filing, 1 yr for insider transfers and in some cases up to several years.
At the end of the day, unfortunately (My Opinion), between the 2 of these assholes there will not be nearly enough $$ to pay back the investors after their trustee liquidates everything they own. My guess is $.10-$.20 cents on the dollar if you are an unsecured creditor holding only a promissory note (PN's are unsecured unless collateralized). Also the gov't will get their cut first since they both have tax liens and tax liens take first priority. SO, if you want to make sure these crooks do not get away with this, you need to make a claim of fraud as fraud is a non-dischargeable debt in bankruptcy. If no fraud, trustee liquidates all of their assets, pays investors back cents on the dollar and the balance of our investments are simply discharged never to be collected, the judge closes the bankruptcy case, and these guys go on their merry way to start earning money again.
To the poster 7 up explaining the Wheeler process: you have it nailed. That is pretty much exactly how it worked. The bottom line is Koerber, Sleater and wheeler were all somewhat connected. Sleater kissed Koerbers ass (at least in the begining), learned alot about how to raise cash for his projects and utilized his methods to do so. Wheeler and Sleater did deals together and Wheeler invested over $5 mil of his investors money to Wade for a particular project in exchange for 48% return. Wheeler gave 24% to his investors and kept 24% for his troubles. Sleater misappropriated money (fraud), blew alot and could not make the huge interest payments to Wheeler; all hell broke loose. Unsecured Personal note from Sleater to Wheeler, unsecured personal note from Wheeler to all of his investors and thats why they both will be filing personal bankruptcy.
I hope that adds some clarity.
02/08/2008 12:49 AM by Sleater Hater
I am with you PB... anyone who knows what we can do to get the SEC's attention, share what you know. What do we need to do? Everyone speak up...
02/08/2008 12:53 AM by and J
First thing you gotta establish is the crossing of state lines. If the rumors of the FBI being involved in investigating Rick are true, then it's not a huge stretch to get the SEC involved.
Next thing you gotta do is flood the SEC with complaints. There used to be a kid who worked with Kyle Nelson, and I think his name was Ryan. I heard once that he had a list of everybody who was invested in Atlas Capital. If Wade was accepting contributions from outside of Utah, there's a case that the SEC will wanna get involved in. That list of people that Ryan has can go a long way to getting in touch with every single person that Wade stole money from and taking that to the SEC. Not that Wade has any assets to hide. As for Rick... you'd have to find somebody on the inside who was willing to sell out on Rick. Good luck.
I think anybody who is owed a single dollar by Wade Sleater and Rick Koerber needs to sue them right now. If they have to go to court on so many suits that they'd obviously lose then maybe it will be possible to keep them out of business for good.
02/08/2008 01:14 AM by How to get the SEC's attention
His name is Ryan Angelos 614-302-8104
02/08/2008 01:20 AM by Ryan
Well, Rick's New Castle Holdings owes me for the property in the different state. I know for the fact that New Castle leased properties in TX, FL, and VA that Hill Ericson sold to "preferred buyers" in Utah. Here is the "crossing of the state lines." About 70 people have not been paid in 4 months on leases/self-financing plus personal promissory notes for missing other 2 months - in my estimate ~$2M - chop change comparing with other charges discussed here.
My problem is - I cannot find the lawer here - almost everybody I know have conflict of interest - they are or were doing some work for Rick and Co. Can anybody recommend any lawer?
02/08/2008 02:36 AM by PB
lawer = lawyer LOL! I need to go to bed
02/08/2008 02:40 AM by PB
SEC...
I know a guy who lives in Chicago that invested with Wade. (about $100K) That's a state line. If someone wants to talk to him, I can put you in touch.
02/08/2008 11:32 AM by Castrate Wade
It looks as if The FreeCapitalist is going back on the air Monday with a live show. Is it to answer questions about why his real estate companies are behind on payments? Is it to apologize to people who have been screwed by using their credit scores to buy homes? Is it toclarify the relationship of Founders Capital with others who have screwed over hundreds of people across the United States?
Nope. Instead he's going to be talking about how the Utah Division of Securities and how the government screws over hard working capitalists like himself. See the annoucement that was emailed to me below. Oddly it says nothing about taking phone calls. I wonder why.
**** ANNOUNCEMENT: F.C.RADIO SPECIAL EVENT ****
Are you interested in securities regulations and how they affect your business?
Monday, February 11th on the morning edition of Free Capitalist Radio, Rick Koerber will host a panel to discuss the topic of securities regulation. In light of the recent resignation of the Director of the Utah Division of Securities, Rick's guests will share their experience and insight in dealing with securities regulations and the bureaucrats who enforce them.
Scheduled guests include:
- Gary D. Kennedy, President and CEO, RemedyMD
- Patrick M. Byrne, Chairman and CEO, Overstock.com
Free Capitalist Radio airs from 9-11 a.m. and 5-7 p.m. (MST) and can be heard in Utah on K-TALK AM 630, or via streaming audio online at http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=2936159&msgid=117450&act=JUME&c=164082&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freecapitalist.com
Click on the "Listen Live" button to tune in!
If you are unable to listen to the live broadcast, you can download the podcast verion of the show at http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=2936159&msgid=117450&act=JUME&c=164082&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freecapitalist.com
Thanks for listening!
Israel Curtis, Producer
Free Capitalist Radio
02/08/2008 04:55 PM by Not Rick
Here's more on "Israel Curtis" mentioned in above post, no wonder he's excited about a program slamming the SEC, he's being investigated already! If you know these special guests Gary D. Kennedy and/or Patrick M. Byrne perhaps you can give them a heads up to read:
Order to Show Cause Link(24 page legal order, long document but worth the read): http://www.securities.utah.gov/dockets/07009201.pdf
If you have a gripe you may want to look up these gentlemen's email addresses on their corporate web sites and send them your real-life experiences before they go on the air and give them an idea of how they are being manipulated.
02/08/2008 05:06 PM by
Short Stack software was owned by Wade Sleater, Brandon Grover, Ryan Warnick and Jarod Ribble. Ryan Warnick is Wade's brother in law. When Wade initially got involved with FranklinSquires he pitched Short Stack's software, which was written so he could manage Atlas Capital, to all of the other holding funds in Rick's downline. At one point Short Stack had 4 or 5 holding funds operating using their software.
I don't know what Ryan is doing now, but Jarrod was working for Brandon Grover at Nuvont maintaining their operational software. As a quick side note to my last post, Brandon Grover, an owner in Atlas Marketing, had one of Atlas' accountants put together a check for some mid six figure number. (If I would have been smart, I would have written it down, it was something like $400k if I remember right) The check was supposed to used as a payment to Veracity Communications which was providing the backbone of Nuvont's services. Later that week somebody told me that John Briggs (the accountant in charge at Atlas) was pissed because the money that Brandon had pulled out of the accounts was supposed to be used to pay credit cards.
Maybe if Wade and Brandon weren't stripping every cent of profit out of their company Atlas Capital wouldn't have had to lend nearly $4mil back to Atlas.
02/09/2008 12:44 AM by Drake
WHERE IS WADE LIVING???
HIS WIFE SHANDA HAS A SISTER NAMED CARA. CARA AND JOHN BRIGGS LIVE IN PLEASENT GROVE, AND WADE LIVES IN THEIR BASEMENT. HE HAS A NEW TRUCK PARKED OUTSIDE...GO HAVE A LOOK.
WADE'S NEW OFFICE IS AT FOUNDER'S INSURANCE IN AMERICAN FORK AND HIS PARTNER IS DARON MILLER
JOHN BRIGGS IS THE ACCOUNTANT FOR WADE & ATLAS MENTIONED ABOVE!!!
WADE'S DAD SONNY GOT THE MONEY - HE'S HIDING IT FOR WADE!!!
02/09/2008 12:53 AM by SONNY'S GOT THE MONEY
To: Friends of freinds, of Wade Sleater
There are many people that know small details and big details that are freinds of friends of Sleter & Nelson. The ivestigation is looking for additional details known by freinds and family of freinds of Wade Sleater and Kyle Nelson. For example, where are the assets hidden, what have you heard or over heard about where the money is located? ALSO: Who was paid wages with assets of the company (like lap-tops)instead of paychecks?
There is an investigation that is almost ready to deliver indictments. Now is the time to add any last details, names, crimes, or victims.
PLEASE CONTACT: The cheif investigator for these guys is Michael Hines. He can be reached at (801)530-6600. Alternatively, you can make a complaint of fraud on-line by using the website below.
http://www.securities.utah.gov/index.html
02/09/2008 01:11 AM by A Friend in need...
Wade is a good man! Someday you'll all be wishing you were Wade. My husband and I lost some money with Wade. My husband has not been happy about it and wants me to put more pressure on Wade, but he is my brother and I just know that someday this is all going to work out. Our family, including Sonny, wouldn't trade this whole mess for anything. We're learning who our friends are and who we can trust. Wade is smart, he's funny, and he makes me laugh...anybody that can do that has got to be smart because I don't laugh very often. He's the best brother I could ever have...even better than my other borther Josh...who lost some money too. Oh Yeah, Sonny is our dad and he lost money too but Wade has been selling stuff on the side to make sure that our dad gets paid back...that's what I call real love and loyalty. In fact Sonny's life-friend paid for Wade's mission and Wade took $300k of his money too...but even then our dad Sonny got paid back first. So those of you who feel screwed by Wade just ask my dad how loyal Wade is and you'll see a father so proud of his son his wallet could burst. My husband knows that he should be more patient with Wade, I have told him many times that family comes first. Not just because of this money thing but even when we have family pictures and my parents make all the spouses step out while they get a picture with just us kids and our born children. So my husband has known for a long time that family comes first. My husband was saving up for a beak-ectomy for my nose and wanted to speed up the opperation date so he put his money in Wade's fund so it would grow faster (not my nose, the money). The doctor says that it is typically called a Rhino-plasty but in my case I look more like a bird so its called beak-ectomy - anyway Wade is going to pay everybody back the $15million that he owes even if it takes 15 million years. Trust me! And those of you who know me know I wouldn't be blinded by the fact that Wade is my brother. I mean, worng is wrong and I don't need my husband to tell me that much.
02/09/2008 01:23 AM by Jordan SLEATER-shields
Hi Jordan,
You sound like you love Wade very much. But you must give your husband the bennefit of grieving the loss of his money. I mean things could be worse, you could actually end up living in Wade's basement and then you would be just as mad as your husband. So don't forget that!! I see a real courage in your words and a defiance that comes from a strong family. You seem like you and Wade have been raised in a family with principles: Like don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal. Helping your father by paying him back first is a real example to all the other investors of the 3rd commandment - honor thy mother and thy father. They need to belive that they will get paid back and then just be patient. As far as your nose is concerned, have you considered Gelcistic Pins. These are little tube like inserts that can save you a lot of pain. The only side effect is that they make your eyes droopy so if you have a beak-like nose you don't want to add droopy eyes or you'll really look strange. I have a profile online if you guys want to see it it's at: http://corrections.utah.gov/asp-bin/sexoffender.asp?offender=154309&addrid=759997&jurs_flg=U&name_id=459717
02/09/2008 01:25 AM by The Big BK
02/09/2008 01:27 AM by
This is a photo of Wade Sleater
02/09/2008 01:31 AM by wade sleater
Legal Wade Sleater Network | E-mail
Controller/Comptroller John Briggs Network | E-mail
Legal Brandon Grover
This information is on Hoovers.com
http://www.hoovers.com/Atlas+Marketing+Group,+L+C/--HD__rtfssxykk,src__global--/free-co-dnb_factsheet.xhtml
02/09/2008 01:41 AM by
Jordan?
Was that really written by you? It's a joke, right? Is that even possible? Can someone actually be that stupid? Maybe you're not as dirty as everyone thinks. We know you're a lier and that you've been helping Wade hide from all the people that he's stolen from. I assumed that it was because you're just as nasty and dishonest as your brother is. But maybe your just a complete idiot. Probably just a bad combination of both.
By the way, the Droopy Eyes aren't the only side effect of Gelcistic Pins. They will also cause you to lose your hair and grow man-boobs. If you don't believe me, just ask Wade.
02/10/2008 01:50 AM by All sleaters are ass holes
Of course that wasn't Jordan. Happy Sunday!
02/10/2008 10:31 AM by Who's the "ass hole"?
Please stop the hate! Wade Sleater only did what too many Utahan's so regularly do. He sat on his Fat-Ass, convinced other dipshits to do his work and to give him money while he, Rick Koerber, Brad Kitchen. Garrett Gunderson, Ron Clarke and a whole slew of others did what they do best... They continued going to church, going on exotic vacations, bought numerous extravagant homes, cars furniture, watches, built home theatres to the tune of $200,000 plus etc... They leveraged themselves, their time, their expertise and anything else that whoever believed 'em they did! They are still doing this, ie; selling insurance, hosting ego based radio show etc... This blog is all talk! Sure they might be under investigation, but what does that mean? Come on people wake up!!! They have commited federal, state and community crimes and yet all that can be done is "talk" about all these FAT SLOBS... They are all FAT! On your money, your food, your ego-stroking, your inability to do something! I don't know, I've lived here about 7 years now and this just happens over and over and over again! No wonder the authorities are sitting on this stuff! It is truly sad that so many have lost so much, but please is it Wade and the bunch or is it someone else who is to blame? I still see these guys on the street, all of them, still in nice cars, still in nice homes, still on nice vacations, still dining at the nicest restaurants, still wearing nice clothes (well except for Brad, nobody looks good wearing a trailer awning) but you get the picture. I'm done here, either you should be too, or...
02/10/2008 06:09 PM by Stop The Hate!
People, what is up? Don't you know that this place is the fraud capitol of the US? Invest in people, business, your health, a good idea etc... But not in real etate, MLM's or anything else that puts more money in someone elses pocket other than yours. I hear Ron Clarke was pulling in over $100,000 a month on those transactions, a real estate agent and his signs are still up. Chocolate can't make you healthy, some exotic weed grown under a rock 35 miles high isn't better than wheatgrass or cilantro and Wade Sleater is nothing more than a 29 tear old thief! Put your health before your wealth and see the TRUE blessings arrive! Get off the Noni, the Xango, the meth, the oxycontin and get with it! Real estate should get you by, but Utah is full of 25 year old developers, contractors, investors etc... Real estate, life insurance policies and the like can't make you rich, they can and did make Rick Koerber and Garrett Gunderson rich, but they can't and won't make YOU rich! You want proof, just look around! Start eating better, get a gym membership, hire a personal trainer, buy organic, but stop wasting your time and money on Wade, Garrett, Rick and the other "good ol' boys". If you want to get pissed and tell me I am wrong and stupid, I first advise you to consider the facts! Who is rich, you or Koerber? Who has a $250,000 car, you or Gunderson? Who is burdened by this blog and its contents, you or Ron Clarke? Who lives in Stonegate, you or Brad Kitchen? Who's wife thinks their husband is the bees-knees, yours or Brads, Rons, Garretts, Ricks, Wades, Gabes??? This is madness, I tell you madness!
02/10/2008 06:39 PM by Advice
My wife thinks I am the bees-knees. Or whatever that is supposed to mean.
Wade Sleater got a call from a stake president down in southern utah, I'm guessing from the hurricane region, and was told that a significant number of the members of his stake were going to go bankrupt unless Wade could find a way to make everything right.
Rick Koerber doesn't cross all of his t's and dot all of his i's and the feds catch him in the act. Hundreds of people who wanted a taste of prosperity get screwed out of who knows how many millions of dollars. While not directly attributeable to Rick, the mortgage industry recieves an earthquake the likes of which nobody has seen since the begining of the great depression.
Wade Sleater and Rick Koerber go to sleep tonight thinking that they are "producers" and that they can make everything thing right. I have a friend who was counting (indrectly) in both Atlas Capital and Founders Capital to make house payments and car payments. He's going to file for bankrupcy here soon too. And Wade and Rick think that it's all somebody else's fault.
02/11/2008 04:07 AM by You'd never...
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To "You'd never" above
Why was your friend counting on AC and FC to make house and car payments? Does he have a job? Can't he cover those expenses with the income from his job? If not, I think we've identified his real problem.
Just something to think about.
02/11/2008 08:35 AM by hmmm....
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To: Advice,
Sounds like you have lost your marbles. I think you should try slowly weening yourself off this blog as your mental health is becoming affected.
02/11/2008 10:59 AM by Larry
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Wow, this blog reads like most of the Crichton type novels that I read. It's got suspense, intrigue, corruption, the threat of gratuitous violence and conspiracy at the highest levels...
Warning: Long post ahead.
Since the beginning of mankind there have always been those who have sought to enrich themselves by taking advantage of others. This process is very easily predicted. It is moving into the next phase already with "the accused" blaming an uninformed population and a tyrannical government for their downfall, taking no personal responsibility for any of this mess in the process.
Before I continue I need tell you that I have been an outside observer of this for quite a while. I was first made aware when a family member went from a good job and a nice lifestyle to living in a million dollar home with a brand of exotic car in the driveway that 99.9% of people don't even know exists. All of this happened practically overnight. I am not geographically close so all I initially got was family reports of how well he was doing as well as an annoyance that he took every family get together as an opportunity to tell everyone that they were fools for not seeing the brilliance of the system and that they were somehow spiritually inferior because they didn't understand the "true" principles of prosperity. When I finally got the chance to speak with him in person he described the process to me. I was very skeptical about it. I make no claims to be a business genius but I have been able to run a successful one for the last 15 years and one thing I do understand is cash flow. I saw a lot of risk in respect to this. He told me that the risk is managed to zero. After I listened to him proselytize, for that's what it was, I asked where the money comes from for all of this property acquisition. "Investors" was his reply. That's all he would say is "investors". About 6 months ago it became apparent that cash flow was real problem for him. He tries to continue with appearance of success but when you have multiple credit cards declined while trying to treat your extended family to meal at the Outback that is a clue that something is not well financially.
Now for my opinion.
I was recently involved in a conversation with the Utah County Sherriff's Dept on an unrelated issue. When I asked about the real estate fraud investigations that they were conducting. They indicated that it was taking time to gather details and facts but that would be moving forward with criminal charges in the coming months. When I asked about Franklin Squires and its associated companies they responded that they were not involved with that one because the FBI was taking the lead there.
A comment on FBI. The FBI is not the TV/movie FBI that many are accustomed to seeing. They are not the gun toting, chase down the bad guys on foot group that many believe them to be. They are accountants, analysts and lawyers who are very patient and very methodical. They have an immense amount of time and incredible resources to crawl into whatever they are investigating. Do not think that because nothing has been publicly said by them that they are not moving forward. This may come off a little conspiratorial but I have to believe that the Federal Government would love to be able to point an accusing finger at a bunch of mortgage and real estate investment con artists for being a major influence in the current state of mortgage crisis.
They need people on the inside to help them. They will find these people. Here is a piece of unsolicited advice. If you have specific knowledge that can help, contact them. Once they have all the help they need the doors will close and anyone not inside will become a focus of prosecution. In case you believe that no one would ever betray Rick and Co. there already are. They already have people on the inside. As this becomes more apparent the paranoia will increase and the people who are at the top will cut themselves free from the organization and let someone else take the fall.
This group is using the exact techniques of organized crime that successfully shield the top leaders while the capos take the fall. People live in fear of "betraying" Rick and Co. because they do not want to be out of favor. The other difficulty to turning is that you would have to admit that you were wrong and as such bear some responsibility.
If you were a recent addition to Rick's empire, like in the last year, and were given lots of money and great titles like President, Vice-President or Director, I urge you to be very careful. There are considerable legal implications associated with titles. If an organization is about to go down and you can't tell who is set up to take the blame, It's probably you. Maybe everyone involved should have a video party in one of their mega home theaters and they can watch Fun with Dick and Jane. Don't think it can't or won't happen.
I hope that this does not destroy the many families that are involved. That would be the ultimate tragedy. Enough from me.
02/11/2008 12:21 PM by FWIW- a heap of unsolicited advice
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Delightful eloquent insight.
"FWIW- a heap of unsolicited advice" please board mail, I woudl like to ask you a few questions if possible.
02/11/2008 12:46 PM by David Doerr
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Anyone catch Koerber's FreeCapitalist radio show today? Did he go off on state regulators with his cronies? Did he take phone calls from pissed off investors?
Post and let us know!
Also, FWIW, much apperated and informative post!
02/11/2008 01:07 PM by Not Rick
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If I have invested money with a holding company and have not received interest payments since September is there a good chance the holding company is involved with Franklin Squire Company? I am sure I have herd the name Franklin Squire in conversations before.
Thanks
POAH
02/11/2008 01:28 PM by POAH
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POAH - please post the name of the Holding C in question and I'm sure someone reading will be able to tell you.
FWIW - excellent post, thank you.
02/11/2008 01:40 PM by concerned family member
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Nice one, FWIW . . . The FBI Governs!
02/11/2008 01:56 PM by
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As if to reinforce FWIW's post above, one of the principals of the Bouchard / Hunters Capital / Founders Capital "Order To Show Cause" appears to have rolled. If you missed the original Order you can read it at:
http://www.securities.utah.gov/dockets/07009201.pdf
And here is today's Division of Securities post titled "Salesman Admits Violations in his Solicitation of Real Estate Notes":
http://securities.utah.gov/press/carlson.pdf
I think FWIW is right, if one is involed in this fiasco and wants out with minimal legal repurcussions (a trade for relevant cooperation) they better do it soon because the music will eventually abruptly stop and you may be left without an empty seat to plop down in.
tick, tick, tick...
02/11/2008 02:35 PM by
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The last paragraph of the pdf file linked above:
"The Division's administrative case continues against Hunters Capital. Bouchard and the other nine salespersons. The criminal case also is ongoing. In addition to these cases, the Division has a number of other administative and criminal cases pending against groups who sold promissory notes in similar schemes. Investigations are continuing against other sellers of promissory notes."
They seem to be careful to mention both "administrative cases" and "criminal cases". Anybody know the difference? Are they investigated/pursued by different regulators/comisars?
tick, tick, tick, tick, tick (much faster this time)...
02/11/2008 02:43 PM by
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FRANKLIN SQUIRES CEASED OPERATIONS TODAY
02/11/2008 07:34 PM by
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Url http://www.franklinsquires.com/ definitely times out. Does anybody know more details on the operation ceasure? That was really fast - too bad my collector did not squeeze anything from them.
02/11/2008 08:22 PM by PB
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I have the scoop on the meeting from a now former employee. However, I'm hesitant to post anything since Rick admitted on his radio show today that he reads this website.
02/11/2008 10:45 PM by Source
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The post 3 up who did you hear that from? Do you have any more info on that?
02/11/2008 11:34 PM by
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2 comments:
I would like to give some perspective (long) to this mess from someone who went to my first FS seminar in 2005. Early in 2006 I bought the complete 4 course package of classes for about $7,300.
I spoke with several individuals who knew Rick Koerber and Gabe personally. One of whom I worked with and I was very impressed when he left our company, bought a million dollar home and was driving around a nice Beemer. All of these things persuaded me to buy the classes.
I put in hours and hours and hours of work with the classes, never seeing anything come from it. I spent time with some other students who submitted homes they found through real estate research to Franklin Squires for their Equity Mill. The research took hours to complete and very few of the homes were accepted, or used for the Equity Mill.
Finally after seeing some first hand work of those who were "successfull" I took a long hard evaluation about the process.
You couldn't have learned the process without taking the classes, and you couldn't have seen how it was used by those making money off of it if you didn't work with them.
The individual I worked with is an honest man, he didn't defraud me or any one else in his work. From my own knowledge of what is legal, I did not see anything illegal. I did see a web of contracts, forms, buyers, sellers, resellers. The man I worked with took the money he made and reinvested in other profit making ventures, not just real estate. He did not solicit investors, and he did not promise anyone anything without explaining how it worked and what the risks were.
The rest of my experience is directly with FS, not the person I worked with who used their system.
As I worked on the "lessons" and did my market research, and watched others toil at doing the same without any of us seeing anything come from it, I began to reevaluate FS. I had 5 different advisors in the 9 months I was taking the classes. The four I had before I stopped, quit the company. I would see them or talk to them or get an email from them when they left, so it wasn't like they moved up or got rich using the FS methods. They left.
Prior to the FS course I knew nothing about real estate or the government laws and regulations surrounding real estate transactions. I began to learn very quickly that some of the people associated with Franklin Squires directly or indirectly were doing unethical things. They would always justify it by saying that were not doing anything "illegal." Then the day came I was asked to do something I was not comfortable with. It wasn't illegal, as a matter of fact what I was asked to do was stipulated in the addendum of the real estate contract we had. However, I was sick to my stomach about it. I was lead to enter a contract, when things didn't work out the way we wanted them to, I was simply told to cancel it according to the stipulation in the addendum.
I felt very bad for the realtor who had worked very hard with me on the home we had contracted on. I had made some verbal representations under someone elses direction that implied just days before everything was good to go. Anyway, I had no choice because I didn't have the money to buy the house. At that point I was done with FS.
I looked at the whole system and realized, even if there wasn't anything illegal going on, it definitely was not ethical. The whole convoluted mess of contracts and buyers and investors is pretty complex, so I couldn't explain it, but I had a gut feeling that the whole thing was a house of cards.
At that point (August 2006) I sent a letter to the company. I wanted them to keep what I would have paid for the first course, which I was a little more than half way through with, and refund the rest of my money from the classes. I explained after seeing how the classes were done and the students treated, and seeing that their focus was on how much money they could get for how little of effort, rather than producing a quality educational experience, I no longer had any desire to pursue the other courses. Being that I had not taken those classes or recieved any of the "proprietary information" that accompanied them, I did not see how this refund request could be a problem.
To get the refund the letter had to be addressed to Rick and sent Certified Mail. I didn't hear anything for three months, though I called at least once a week. Finally, after not hearing anything, I looked up Rick's home information on Dex and called his house (you couldn't find his information their even one day later thanks to me!). His wife answered and I asked for him. She said he wasn't home but asked what it was for. I told her I had sent a letter to him by certified mail that he had failed to respond to for three months. Every time I called his office he was unavailable, so I thought he might be more available if I called his house. Of course she was irritated with me and asked me not to call his home for things dealing with business ever again. I apologized for taking her time. The next day I got a call from his assistant telling me the refund was being issued and sent in the mail that day. She then asked how I got his home phone number, and I told her.
After seeing first hand that FS was not producing anything, they were just using an elaborate scheme to get equity out of houses. After being exposed to their poor ethics. And judging from their lack of dedication to their clients, my moral compass told me to GET OUT and I did. It was wrong to push the envelope the way FS did and anyone who took the time to do a little reading about real estate outside of the FS lessons could have seen how they were abusing the system. I am glad I followed my better judgement, and I feel bad for others who lost so much. If you want to learn how to earn 5% on your money take ten years to learn how to do day trading and options trading. In those markets they tell you you can loose everything, even if you can pull a Soros move. I don't thing the FS team was maliciously lying, I just think they were overconfidant in the market and not nearly savvy about market fluctuations as they believed them selves to be. They would talk about how "real estate never looses value" and that is why even if they couldn't continue operations they would be able to at least refund all their investors the full value of their starting capital. Really? What is going on now then! Rick Koerber isn't a lying crook, he is just an arrogant fool that thought he came up with some newfound way of raising capital, but couldn't see how the whole thing could implode on itself. Though their are undoubtedly many who were dishonest in this, I believe Rick and Gabe started out with good intentions and thought they were doing something good, or found a good system for flipping houses and building capital. They just weren't as smart as that thought they were. Some people change when they get money too, and I don't know them personally, but they may have gotten so much of it that they believed the money in and of itself was proof they were doing something good. The money also may have become the end goal. The love of money is the root of all evil. If money is your only priority you are very susceptible to evil influences. Perhaps the money became their ultimate goal, rather than producing. If that is the case the greed may have lead to doing illegal things later on. I just know what I learned in the classes did not smack of illegal methods. It was the unethical practice of those methods and hypocritical performance (what has FS produced and the classes I paid a premium for were amateur in their presentation and follow up at best) that sent me packing.
I would like to give some perspective (long) to this mess from someone who went to my first FS seminar in 2005. Early in 2006 I bought the complete 4 course package of classes for about $7,300.
I spoke with several individuals who knew Rick Koerber and Gabe personally. One of whom I worked with and I was very impressed when he left our company, bought a million dollar home and was driving around a nice Beemer. All of these things persuaded me to buy the classes.
I put in hours and hours and hours of work with the classes, never seeing anything come from it. I spent time with some other students who submitted homes they found through real estate research to Franklin Squires for their Equity Mill. The research took hours to complete and very few of the homes were accepted, or used for the Equity Mill.
Finally after seeing some first hand work of those who were "successfull" I took a long hard evaluation about the process.
You couldn't have learned the process without taking the classes, and you couldn't have seen how it was used by those making money off of it if you didn't work with them.
The individual I worked with is an honest man, he didn't defraud me or any one else in his work. From my own knowledge of what is legal, I did not see anything illegal. I did see a web of contracts, forms, buyers, sellers, resellers. The man I worked with took the money he made and reinvested in other profit making ventures, not just real estate. He did not solicit investors, and he did not promise anyone anything without explaining how it worked and what the risks were.
The rest of my experience is directly with FS, not the person I worked with who used their system.
As I worked on the "lessons" and did my market research, and watched others toil at doing the same without any of us seeing anything come from it, I began to reevaluate FS. I had 5 different advisors in the 9 months I was taking the classes. The four I had before I stopped, quit the company. I would see them or talk to them or get an email from them when they left, so it wasn't like they moved up or got rich using the FS methods. They left.
Prior to the FS course I knew nothing about real estate or the government laws and regulations surrounding real estate transactions. I began to learn very quickly that some of the people associated with Franklin Squires directly or indirectly were doing unethical things. They would always justify it by saying that were not doing anything "illegal." Then the day came I was asked to do something I was not comfortable with. It wasn't illegal, as a matter of fact what I was asked to do was stipulated in the addendum of the real estate contract we had. However, I was sick to my stomach about it. I was lead to enter a contract, when things didn't work out the way we wanted them to, I was simply told to cancel it according to the stipulation in the addendum.
I felt very bad for the realtor who had worked very hard with me on the home we had contracted on. I had made some verbal representations under someone elses direction that implied just days before everything was good to go. Anyway, I had no choice because I didn't have the money to buy the house. At that point I was done with FS.
I looked at the whole system and realized, even if there wasn't anything illegal going on, it definitely was not ethical. The whole convoluted mess of contracts and buyers and investors is pretty complex, so I couldn't explain it, but I had a gut feeling that the whole thing was a house of cards.
At that point (August 2006) I sent a letter to the company. I wanted them to keep what I would have paid for the first course, which I was a little more than half way through with, and refund the rest of my money from the classes. I explained after seeing how the classes were done and the students treated, and seeing that their focus was on how much money they could get for how little of effort, rather than producing a quality educational experience, I no longer had any desire to pursue the other courses. Being that I had not taken those classes or recieved any of the "proprietary information" that accompanied them, I did not see how this refund request could be a problem.
To get the refund the letter had to be addressed to Rick and sent Certified Mail. I didn't hear anything for three months, though I called at least once a week. Finally, after not hearing anything, I looked up Rick's home information on Dex and called his house (you couldn't find his information their even one day later thanks to me!). His wife answered and I asked for him. She said he wasn't home but asked what it was for. I told her I had sent a letter to him by certified mail that he had failed to respond to for three months. Every time I called his office he was unavailable, so I thought he might be more available if I called his house. Of course she was irritated with me and asked me not to call his home for things dealing with business ever again. I apologized for taking her time. The next day I got a call from his assistant telling me the refund was being issued and sent in the mail that day. She then asked how I got his home phone number, and I told her.
After seeing first hand that FS was not producing anything, they were just using an elaborate scheme to get equity out of houses. After being exposed to their poor ethics. And judging from their lack of dedication to their clients, my moral compass told me to GET OUT and I did. It was wrong to push the envelope the way FS did and anyone who took the time to do a little reading about real estate outside of the FS lessons could have seen how they were abusing the system. I am glad I followed my better judgement, and I feel bad for others who lost so much. If you want to learn how to earn 5% on your money take ten years to learn how to do day trading and options trading. In those markets they tell you you can loose everything, even if you can pull a Soros move. I don't thing the FS team was maliciously lying, I just think they were overconfidant in the market and not nearly savvy about market fluctuations as they believed them selves to be. They would talk about how "real estate never looses value" and that is why even if they couldn't continue operations they would be able to at least refund all their investors the full value of their starting capital. Really? What is going on now then! Rick Koerber isn't a lying crook, he is just an arrogant fool that thought he came up with some newfound way of raising capital, but couldn't see how the whole thing could implode on itself. Though their are undoubtedly many who were dishonest in this, I believe Rick and Gabe started out with good intentions and thought they were doing something good, or found a good system for flipping houses and building capital. They just weren't as smart as that thought they were. Some people change when they get money too, and I don't know them personally, but they may have gotten so much of it that they believed the money in and of itself was proof they were doing something good. The money also may have become the end goal. The love of money is the root of all evil. If money is your only priority you are very susceptible to evil influences. Perhaps the money became their ultimate goal, rather than producing. If that is the case the greed may have lead to doing illegal things later on. I just know what I learned in the classes did not smack of illegal methods. It was the unethical practice of those methods that sent me packing. Well, that and the fact that I didn't recieve what I paid for in those classes. The classes and the support system were amateur and unprofessional. It was the work of someone who wanted to get as much money as possible for as little work as possible, rather than someone who valued there client and sought to fulfill the obligations of the contract to there utmost. Not enough talk of an honest days work for an honest days pay anymore. It is all about how much you can get how fast, regardless of how it is done.
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